或許是受到成長環境的影響，WADE DAO 的身份與創作載體顯得異常多元。他既是音樂製作人、歌手，也是活動主持人、B-Boy，甚至是一名作家。

在採訪之前，我們對他的人生經歷充滿好奇 —— 像這樣一位幾乎涉略全面且滿腹經綸的人，究竟是如何看待他所擁有的一切？然而，對話過後，更讓人欽佩的是他的觀點、價值觀，以及對自我的深刻反思與鑒察能力。

 

他說，若將 WADE DAO 看作一個品牌，「它的宗旨即是啟發聆聽者的信心，協助他們在這不斷支離破碎的文化場景中維持一種穩定性。」

接下來，你會更加了解 WADE DAO：

從小在天母長大，後又搬到紐約。不同環境對於你的性格塑造有何影響？

長期暴露於異地遷移、語言障礙，以及歷史軌跡被模糊等文化抽離經歷，久了是很讓人沮喪的。

對我來說，這不斷更迭的生活背景（國家、學校、社交群體、語言）為我帶來了無法抹去的斷裂感、不協調感⋯⋯可能性。即便如此，年輕的我總因無法找到穩固的立足點而感到無助，這大概也是為何我讓大部分的童年在幻想中度過——畢竟心靈是唯一不會被撕裂的地方。而之外的世界則猶如不斷被磨合耗損的事物，最終在我內心深處沉澱、形成一種世界觀：它告訴我一切若不是在崩壞中，就是處於崩壞邊緣。

After you experience your own culture fragmenting for long enough–whether through moving from place to place, not knowing the language, having your own history obscured–you start to get frustrated.

For me, the constantly shifting background (countries, schools, social groups, languages) created a continual sense of rupture, misalignments… possibilities. Sometimes it didn’t add up, and it frustrated me to not have a stable floor to stand on as a younger boy. This is probably why I lived in my imagination for most of my childhood–because my mind was the only tapestry that wouldn’t rip. Outside of me, the world felt like a constantly fraying thing–the sense of repeated rupture would eventually sediment from experience into a worldview. Deep in my psyche, I feel that something is always breaking, or on the point of.

那，崩壞之後呢？

伴隨崩壞的也有過渡、無常與緊迫等感觸。而這些感觸在我的旅程早期化成為兩種實踐：「即興」與「觀察」。這兩個工具對我來說必不可少，因為它們讓我得以在不忘記自我的情況下繼續前進——在缺乏語言經驗的情況下幫助我學習，並同時建構屬於我的框架，以便與周圍不斷變遷的景象溝通。

And what happens after the break?

What comes with continual sense rupture is also a sense of transition, impermanence, urgency. For me, I feel like this manifested as two practices that I was exposed to, early on: improvisation and observation. These two tools were necessary for me to keep moving without forgetting who I was… learning language for my experience where there wasn’t any, and inventing my own framework in order to communicate to the constantly changing scenery around me.

我覺得要在沒有固定的住所或歷史背景下建立自己的天空之城，需要大量的研究、自信和創造力。在美國出生但與父母講中文的我，並無法像有些人一樣能明確量化心中東方和西方價值的比例，以及指出它們如何塑造了我的世界觀或個性。不過，這個亞裔美國人的身份確實讓我的觀察力相對其他人來說更為敏銳，且近幾年，這份天賦愈發明顯——對此，我倒是很慶幸能擁有兩面鏡子來映照我的旅程。

怎麼說？ 1＋1＝3。

It takes a great deal of research, confidence, and creativity to create your own castle in the sky where there is no place or history to root fully into. Because for me, I was born in the United States, but spoke Mandarin with my mother and father. I’ve heard others try to do this, but I can’t really sit here and quantify the ratio of Eastern and Western value systems, and how they resulted in shaping my own framework of the world, or my own personality. But I do know that the experience of being Asian-American has always made me doubly observant where others might not think looking is a necessity. In my recent years, the gift has been more clear–how blessed I am to have cultivated two mirrors to reflect the path.

「舞蹈」在你生命中佔有相當重要的地位。你曾說，藉由 breaking 讓你認識了自己。能否進一步分享你的舞蹈經歷，以及往後在音樂創作上如何被其影響？

即便距離發源地遙遠，我卻有幸接觸到 breaking。如果說有什麼值得一提的，那就是所謂文化凝聚及研究所展現出的力量與熱情真不得了。

Breaking（在更廣的嘻哈文化背景下）走向了國際，透過一些不知名的亞裔兄弟觸及了更遙遠的海岸。他們的學習、交流，促進了我們早期對美國黑人文化的理解——雖然對我們來說，其實就只是聚在一起 break，一起想辦法弄清楚每個動作的技巧。

By some stroke of luck, I was exposed to breakin’ despite being far from where that cultural innovation was taking place. If nothing else, what a testament to the power and fire of sustained cultural cohesion and deep research. Breakin’ (in the larger context of Hip-Hop) went international, but also reached distant shores via other Asian-American brothers that were also traveling, unknowing international students, some of which learned, messaged, and informed our early understandings of Black American culture. For us, it was just hanging out and breakin’, figuring out how to do the thing together.

我的旅程可以說就是從彼時開始的——這些練舞的 session、break、cypher……到後來的擴展語言基礎、翻轉詞義，創造可以自己掌控的技巧，對我來說與舞蹈相似——且實質上，他們確實也在回答同一個問題：「我是誰？」以及「我該如何運用我的聲音？」所以我會覺得 breaking 是我踏入圈子的第一步。

That’s where much of it started, the session, the break, the cypher… and the idea of flipping a language, expanding upon the language base and creating something which you can wield as your own. Though at the time it felt like dancing, it was always about answering the question: who am I, and how will I use my voice? So I like to think of breakin’ as the first circle I joined in myself.

另外，在黑人和白人美國的背景中了解自己是件棘手的事，畢竟我們通常在學校所學的總與我們的 breaking 英雄所傳授的教誨直接衝突。如此矛盾的來往下，我明白自己在這更廣泛的二元世界中其實是不被看見的。但關於定位一事有趣的是，我透過了大量的學術教育理解了外部的世界，但要直到參與 breaking 和嘻哈，我才得以往內學習、認識我自己的世界。

It was tricky to learn about myself in both the contexts of Black and White America. Often, the values we learned in school would directly conflict with what our breakin’ heroes were telling us. But in the mix, I learned quickly that I was considered “invisible” in the greater space of this diatomic relationship. I An interesting point on positioning, though: much of my academic education was where I learned about the external world. It wasn’t until breakin’ and Hip Hop that I started to learn–understand, and know–inside and of myself.

關於「藉由 breaking 認識自己」這個問題，我現在的延伸答案會是：這與物理學有關。如果說物理是對物質的研究，那麼它也是對世界的研究。這是一個崇高且激勵人心的研究領域，因為它旨在建立一個能讓我們感知其他一切的最大框架。

So–on the point about dance helping you understand yourself–my answer now is that it’s about physics. Here’s why: if physics is the study of matter, it is also the study of the world. It is a noble and inspiring field of research, as it aspires to the largest framework in which we can perceive everything else in this life.

同理，當你在 breaking 時，你必須藉由不斷重複來掌握一個 move，並透過更多無止盡的重複來保住它。例如，一個半吊子的倒立會害你摔倒（除非你能翻轉那個空間），它既不算完成，更不會變成你的。在這個信手捻來的客觀空間中，breaking 讓你的身體參與，同時也迫使你回答這個問題：我是否有那個覺悟讓這些想法在此刻、此地化為現實？我能否承擔這個決定和動作的後果？我可以在這個注定會過期的身體持續活動多久？要跳舞，你必須投入，而投入，需要你「成為」。我想李小龍所說的「成為茶壺」就是這個概念，換句話說 breaking 和武術是相似的，都是達到洞見、控制和與我們的物理世界和諧相處的媒介。對我來說，自我理解的旅程始於學會用我的身體做一些瘋狂的事情。

So–when you’re breaking, you have to do the move again and again to acquire it, and ad infinitum to keep the move. Like, you can’t do a handstand halfway–you’ll fall on your ass (unless you flip that space as well). If you don’t do it all the way, it’s not done, and it’s not yours either. There is an objective space in breakin’ where your physical being comes into play, and you are forced to answer the question: do I have what it takes to make this idea real, right here, in front of me? Can I live with and through the consequences of my own decision, momentum? How and how long can I continue to move inside of this body which is certain to expire? To dance, you have to embody. To embody, you have to become. When Bruce speaks of becoming the teapot, I think that’s what he means. In that sense, breakin’ and martial arts are similar in the sense of being vehicles to attain insight, control, and harmony with our physical world. For me, my journey of self-understanding started with learning how to do some crazy shit with my body.

你擁有多重身份，也熱衷於各種愛好 —— 是什麼緣故讓你如此積極、勇於探索？

綜合先前提到的種種，我很感激你會用「勇敢」一詞形容我。我一路上慶幸地結識了許多導師，並且一起成長，其中一些人更成為了我一生的朋友。除了他們的支持和指導外，我想我沉浸多種領域的驅動力是來自我的父母。就像所有孩子必然受前一代人的影響，我也好好承接了我的血脈：我很愛玩。

I’m thankful that here you say courageous, for the previously mentioned reasons. I’m incredibly grateful to have met and grown alongside many mentors, some of which became lifelong friends. In addition to their support and guidance–I think the drive to immerse myself in many languages comes from my mother and my father, who so bravely raised me. Like all children, I take after the generation that came before me, and I like to play.

請聽我解釋。

我的母親是一位老師，透過音樂教授玩耍、色彩與喜悅的本質——她教會了我勇敢地在這個時常殘酷的世界中面對自己的心，如蓮花一般在泥土中綻放；我的父親則是一位博學的人，總是樂於成為房間裡那個最新進、最缺乏經驗的人。年輕時從建築師起步，在服役期間踏上了通往美國大學的道路 —— 我就是在那裡出生的 —— 後來投身於房地產，進入充滿變化、危險的亞洲風險投資水域，接著涉足媒體和娛樂產業，而後飆風於中國 F1 賽道上，到現在的教育領域，傳授人們通過獲取多種系統來實現自主的知識。我想我的勇氣就是源自於他，且即使是現在，他也沒有停下來。他是我第一個真正意義上「student of life」的榜樣，在我還小的時候就告訴我：學得越多，能玩的就越多 (“the more you learn, the more you can play”)。但事實上：在每種媒介中，玩的方式和感覺都不同。因此我常想像，或許有一天所有這些語言最終會以某種方式聯結在一起，成為一個近乎無限的多維度空間。希望有朝一日能見證。

Let me explain. My mother is a teacher who shares the gift of play, color, and joy through music–she is is my role model for being brave with your heart in a world that is often cruel. How to be like the lotus that grows in mud? She taught me. On the other hand, my father is a renaissance man who has always been comfortable being the newest and least experienced person in the room. My courage comes from him, a young architect who, while enlisted in the army, forged his own pathway to University in America–where I was born–who later threw himself into real estate, then into the mutated, shark-infested water of Asian venture capitalism, then media and entertainment, Chinese F1 racing, and now, education. He teaches people to become autonomous via the acquisition of multiple systems. Even now he hasn’t stopped. He is my first role model for what it truly means to be a student of life. When I was a young boy, he told me: the more you learn, the more you can play. Here’s the thing: play looks and feels different in every medium. But at some point, I imagine that all these languages connect, and what you end up in is a multidimensional space, a space close to infinity, perhaps. I’d like to see it.

你如何定義熱門和冷門？能完美遊走在兩者間的關鍵是什麼？

「冷門」一 是我在 2022 年發行《A WILD DANCE OF FLAME》時學到的一個新詞彙。我還蠻喜歡這個寒冷的門的意象，但我現在不會用這個措辭來描述我目前的運作。

I remember this phrasing–“冷門” was a new phrase I had learned around the time of A WILD DANCE OF FLAME’s release in 2022, and it resonated with me because I just liked the imagery of a cold, freezing door. I wouldn’t use that phrasing to describe the operation now, for the record.

不過，回到你的問題——我覺得兩者之間的區別其實在於「容易找到」（主流）及「不容易找到」（相對而言）。在今天，資訊的挖掘並不困難⋯⋯聽過 Bandcamp 嗎？查詢過曲目的製作名單或是延伸脈絡嗎？沒有嗎？那說到底這其實是一個人類是否願意努力讓事情變有趣的基本問題，事實上也是越來越稀缺的習慣。而當今的音樂或文化，什麼容易被找到通常也取決於在地的經濟狀況以及該國在全球市場中的產業定位。無論你身在何處，通常你看到的東西是因為某個人或某些人希望你看到它，根本上脫離不了更廣的利益關係。所以，我認為在看待主流與其相對的概念時，我們可以先將噱頭抽離出來，並將這些對立用作過濾器，幫助你找到資源的所在，畢竟有些事物運作所需的資源比其他的更多。理解「噱頭」，以及其波動性、隨機性和不理性，有助於讓你記住你來這裡的目的。

But to answer your question–I feel that the difference between the two is really just what’s easy to find (mainstream) and what isn’t easy to find (the opposite?). It isn’t hard to dig nowadays. You ever heard of bandcamp? Song credits? Looking into the network to find the names of the people who made the shit happen? Ok. So it’s also a question of basic human effort to make things interesting–which is a quality that is becoming more and more scarce, unfortunately. And as far as music or culture in this day and age goes, what’s easy to find is usually determined by the economics of the country and the politics of the industry within that country in relation to the global market. No matter where you are, usually you see what you see because someone, or some group of people, want you to see it, often to their benefit. So I think it’s helpful to strip away the hype when thinking about mainstream versus its opposite. If anything, these opposites should be used as a filter that helps navigate where the resources are. Some operations need more resources than others. Understanding hype–how volatile, random, and irrational that substance can be–that helps with remembering what you came here to do.

新專輯《WAVE.DAO》別於以往，特別是在曲風上有所突破。之所以選擇探索 UK garage 可能性的原因是…？製作過程中你獲得了什麼啟發？

如果音樂蘊含了創作者的能量、所在和精神，那麼不同的音樂風格就代表了不同的人群、價值觀和生活方式。若實際一點來看，嘗試新風格能讓我接觸到更廣泛的受眾——例如夜店文化或國際舞台——這對於任何創作都是重要的。

If traces of energy, place, and spirit are stored within the music by the people who create it, I am under the assumption that different music styles represent different demographics, value systems, ways of being. Practically, I felt that experimenting with a new style would lead to greater access–for example, to club settings or even international scenes–which is critical for any operation.

《WAVE.DAO》的核心在於擴展視野，選擇寬廣而非深入。我覺得在 UKG 的背景下，音樂體驗變得更容易參與，幾乎像是一個免費活動——我希望讓人們輕鬆參與其中，同時我也能更好地了解自己的定位。如果你是透過《WAVE.DAO》接觸 WADE DAO，那麼早期的作品可能會讓你感到困惑，像《A WILD DANCE OF FLAME》中那種長達三分鐘沒有鼓的 beats 形式，主要比較能與已經知道自己想要什麼的聽眾產生共鳴。
因此《WAVE.DAO》也是我的研究和開發過程，我故意選擇進入一個更顯眼、更容易接觸的領域。

WAVE.DAO was about broadening, going wide instead of deep. I felt that in the context of UKG, the experience would become more accessible, almost like a free event–I wanted to make it easy for people to participate in what was happening, so I could learn more about my position. If your point of access to WADE DAO was through WAVE.DAO, the earlier stuff probably wouldn’t make sense. Drumless verses for three minutes on A WILD DANCE OF FLAME–that’s for the trained listener, who already knows what they want. So WAVE.DAO, from an operational standpoint, was research and development and me stepping intentionally into a more visible, accessible space.

且作為一名舞者，接觸 UKG 也是透過了舞蹈的途徑而產生了初步的共鳴，因為 UKG 某種程度會讓我想到 breakbeats。這也是為什麼 Melting Part 和我早期就意識到這個項目是為舞者、旅行者以及任何珍視運動本質的人所設計的。

As a dancer, however, UKG reminded me of breakbeats. The resonance started there. My point of access to the music of UKG was, again, through movement. This is also why, early on, Melting Part and I realized early on that the project was designed for dancers, movers, travelers, and anyone who valued that essence of movement.

和 SOWUT 合作曲目〈Like Water〉—— 能分享其創作理念，以及與 SOWUT、rgry 的合作關係？

自從幾年前 rgry 介紹 SOWUT 和我認識以來，我們之間一直保持著很好的化學反應。在創作《LIKE WATER》時，我正在香港旅行，且更之前也在紐約待了幾週，當時多處於比較快捷的生活節奏中。在香港，我受到水和高樓鏡面所創造的——宛如一片無盡的鏡面海洋的景象所啟發。結合運動這一核心主題，這首歌最終成為了中心，將運動的概念深深扎根於水中——這個永恆的物質，以及集合人類經驗的象徵與載體。

SOWUT and I have had great alchemy from the moment rgry introduced me to him, years ago. I was traveling at the time that I made LIKE WATER. I was in Hong Kong after having stayed in New York for a few weeks, so the pace was fast at the time. In Hong Kong, I was inspired by how the water and the mirrors from the high rise created an illusion: this seemingly infinite ocean of mirrors. Combined with the central theme of movement, being for movers, that track ended up being a centerpiece, in that it grounded the idea of movement in water–a timeless substance, and an eternal symbol in our human experience.

最近也與 DeMarcoLab 有周邊商品合作，介紹一下設計吧！

《WAVE.DAO: THE C-SIDES》—— 包含音樂和衣服周邊——是個綜合聲響與織物的體驗。如果説《WAVE.DAO》帶你前往開放的海洋，那麼這次則是朝山前進，幫助你為冬季做好準備。

目前，我不打算詳細介紹設計的具體內容，但可以說的是，我很幸運能與多位工藝大師一同參與這次的發行。首先是來自 DeMarcoLab 的 BDK、Melting Part 的 2KE，還有日本 ODD TAPE DUPLICATION 和 CORNER PRINTING 的 KAZUYA，每一位都是各自文藝領域中的翹楚！

WAVE.DAO: THE C-SIDES —— Music, garment, sound and fabric. If WAVE.DAO took you towards the open sea, this one gears up for winter–the compass needle points towards the high mountains.

At this time, I prefer not to introduce the specifics of the designs myself. But I can say that I’ve been blessed to work with multiple masters of their crafts for this release. Each of them are renaissance artists in their own right: BDK from DEMARCOLAB. 2KE from MELTING PART. KAZUYA from ODD TAPE DUPLICATION and CORNER PRINTING. Just watch.

最後，從最初的舞蹈、音樂創作….探索至今，你最深刻的體悟是….？

回答這題我想引用江本勝先生關於水的研究：人類的存在是為了將經驗化成的果實寫入「水」的編碼中，而那個果實就是所謂的「愛」。當你對水表達甜言蜜語時，看看其中形成的水晶形體，對比於持續輸入破壞及暴力等力量的結果——那差異是多麼的鮮明。雖然破壞和剝離在某些時刻在所難免，但在分子間的微型宇宙中，我們的故事終將以愛結尾。我想這就是我們存在的使命，無論你如何撰寫你的旅程。

This one is inspired by the work of Masaru Emoto: humans exist to encode the fruits of our experience back into “water”. The other word for this is love. Look at the water crystals when you talk sweet to them…versus when you use that power for destruction and violence. There is a time to destroy and strip away, but it’s in the molecules–this story of ours ends with love. However you find your way back, that is the mission.