christianity?

the case for intelligent design
this is a little long if you care to read...written by me a while back to another dude via pm...so pardon the typos, run ons, grammaticals, etc.


the only thing that i hope to accomplish w/this is to show you that not all christians are shove it down your throat, illogical types. I am a Christian. Not the greatest, but I am. And I've arrived at this point both spiritually AND logically.






en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein

Ok, let's consider the complexity of protein.

But before that, let's deal with the history of the theory of macro evolution. I'll keep it short. Pretty much, when they came up with that theory, it was before they knew how complex a single cell organism was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_membrane

So, what we're talking about is a bunch of atoms accidentally aligning themselves to form protein molecules. Then those molecules accidentally/coincidentally aligning themselves perfectly. Just considering the complexity of one kind of molecule necessary for a cell, it seems really improbable for it to replicate thousands of times over just to form a cell membrane.

How many protein molecules are needed for a cell membrane. Not how many kinds...how many molecules...specifically perfectly aligned protien molecules...how many are needed to form just the cell membrane alone? An awful lot. And we're only at the cell membrane.


So what we're talking about here, is millions of atoms accidentally coming together to form protein....and millions of protein molecules accidentally forming a cell membrane...then millions more molecules to form the complex DNA, nucleus, mitochondrea, endoplasmic reticulum....etc....ok, so, accidentally all these molecules just happened to collide and make a cell.

What gave the cell the instinct to replicate? It seems as if there's an intelligence to single celled organisms...they want to survive...they replicate...why? If they're just a blob of molecules accidentally formed, where would the need to replicate come from?
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Ok, so now we have a single cell that replicates....what happened that one cell mutated? And why did some single cells, instead of remaining single cells, bind to eachother to form a larger creature? And as they were bound, what need did they have to evolve? There were no predators....they don't have the intelligence to think of a way to combat/avoid the elements...they're just accidents of complex molecule collision.

How long can single cells live? Cuz that would mean, if evolution takes millions of years, that these single cells would have to develop into clusters and replicate into clusters...and those clusters would have to mutate and continue to mutate until they got to some sort of other creature. But again, why would they have this instinct? If DNA determines what a cell will do, how did this accidental collision of molecules accidentally mutate to become something else?


But we have other creatures. So that means that not only did one single cell mutate into something else but many. Cuz I may be wrong, but were early creatures asexual? Could they reproduce w/out a partner? If so, why the need to change sexes? If not, how did one animal procreate? How did two accidents mutate seperately but compatible enough to procreate?

So mathematically, it's just improbable. Even using an old earth model it's improbable. Random molecules perfectly align to make a cell. The cell replicates. They continue to replicate for no reason. Then they mutate. Then continue to mutate into animals. Then the animals, for no reason develop sexes...make millions of different species...they turn into other things....the laws of probability suggest that this is impossible in the amount of time given....I'll leave it alone. I'm sure you get the point.
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Anyway,

Imagine I give you a hand full of building blocks. Like the kindergarten alphabet blocks. Let's say, 10 blocks. I say, throw them in the air until they land perfectly in a single column. How long will it take for that to happen due to random chance? And if it does happen, how long will it take for it to happen again? How about a million times over?

Well, you may say, eventually I could learn how to make them land in a perfect column...but then, it's no longer to due to random chance...you've crossed the line into intelligent design.

Now using that analogy, we're only talking 10 little blocks...what about millions of atoms and molecules perfectly aligning (accidentally) and then having a nucleus that decides to replicate and by chance these clones mutate and mutate again and again and again...mutation having to be entirely due to chance...etc...it's just improbable.


Why would a sea creature find the desired to live on land if it's surviving perfectly fine in the water? And how did that creature find a compatible randomly mutated land animal to mate with?

To me it just points to intelligent design.

And that's not even talking about the complexity of the eye.
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i don't really wanna get into this debate man...but i'll adress a few things.

^its not accidents. Evolution occured over the course of billions of years. Organisms adapted to their environments.

you didn't read what i wrote homie...if life started of from one organism, the probability of all the appropriate molecules to align perfectly, over and over and over again, in a short enough time span for the organism to live....well, it's very improbable....and how did that single cell adapt? to what? what gave it the instinct to multiply and those clones to mutate into something different?

The whole god created the world in 7 days thing has been disproven. A lot of the stuff in the bible has been disproven. Water first came about on this planet from passing comets.

sorry, but that's a theory...you can't disprove a theory w/a counter theory.....how can they prove it if no one was around? And even if it is true, how does that disprove the theory of intelligent design? It really doesn't.

How could there be adam and eve if the theory of evolution has been proven?

your correction is in your statement...evolution is still a theory...not fact...there's still much to explain...for example my first point...the original organism is an accident...if it's not then you're admitting it was intelligent design. Missing links everywhere....discrepancies in carbon dating...that's why it's still a theory.



my eyes are open...plus, i'm a civil man....i don't win debates by acting as if my opponent's a fool for believing in his theory...i see how he's gotten there...i win by presenting logical questions...I can't prove that GOD is real, but I can provide facts that will make you consider that intelligent design isn't totally illogical...and i can present evidence that the bible must have been written by a higher intelligence.

Trust me doggie, i'm not all pass the offering plate and shuck and jive...i do my research.



feel free to pm me if you wanna keep going...personally, i kinda want this thread to die.

Just to clear up something that was in the first post of this thread, the example was something along the lines of other religions like buddhism and Islam "not believing in Jesus Christ"...I'm a Muslim. We believe in Jesus. Now we don't believe in Jesus being God, and the son of God, etc etc....in fact, personally (and this is not the Muslim standpoint), but I think the idea of the 'divine trinity' is sort of hard to grasp and paradoxical. I don't want to say illogical because I'm taught to respect other religions. And I have never gotten back a decent response, only thing I get back is "its the miracle of God." BUT thats a whole nother topic. Point is, Muslims believe in Jesus as a Prophet and a Messenger. We believe in the Bible, but we also believe that the original teachings of Jesus were lost after his crucifiction.


And to all the religulous (sp? ) athiests out there....why are y'all niiggas so pissed that some people need to follow a specific faith to find spiritual contentment and happiness in their lives? Those who don't believe in God always seem to be mad @ those who do, like our choice in life impacts you or our supposed "ignorance" means enough for you to rant on and on. I'm happy doing what I do, believing in God, and you're happy not...everybody do what they see fit.

So, if no God exists as y'all believe, when we all die, all of us who believe in a God will look ignorant and we'll all just rot. BUT, if we die and Y'ALL niiggas are all wrong, then God's gonna body the shit out of y'all


my $0.02

unooo

Believe in what you gotta believe, but believe in the Truth.

athiests arent mad at thosefor believing in god, i am mad at them for always thinking thy are superior, that they are better than others and other religions. and always preaching how, I am going to hell because i dont believe, when enough times, i;ve done more good deeds, and helped others in the world than some of these christians. I don't believe jesus and god wanted these christians to waste every sunday sitting around listening, i think it would be much mroe productive, if everyone got off their asses and contribute more to society, do more charity work.

i agree

Man created god in his own image.

this debate is stupid and never goes anywhere wooooooooo

first point, atoms randomly forming cells, it took billions of years for the first microorganisms to appear, they didnt get it just right in a matter of days, ever heard of the saying if you put an infinite amount of monkeys on typewriters you'll get all written works in the world?

you cannot separate math from science...probability is part of math...macro evolution is mathematically improbable...

that's why i initially cited that wiki about the structure of protein...dog, we're talking about a molecular structure, by random chance coming together perfectly trillions and trillions of times over...and like i said, we know that single cells die quickly,so it's also improbably for those proteins to bind to form a cell membrane fast enough to produce something living..and that's just the cell membrane...not including the nucleus or other cellular functions. By random chance, it's not probable.

second point, it's not a theory if its based on a book written thousands of years ago with out any physical evidence, comets are mainly water and carbon, elements for life in short, it's certainly more plausible than everything being created by a divine being at a whim

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This thread is too long to read now.

Can somebody who's been following it sum up the major points being debated?

intelligent design/creation vs random chance/evolution is always long and involved....


Don't know how to summarize...i guess it goes something like this.

PARTY A
Religion is a joke...there is no god..the idea of god is illogical...evolution is fact...life is but a mere accidental collision of atoms


PARTY B
Religion is not a joke and some people have come to that conclusion logically...evolution is still a theory...macro evolution is flawed and improbable...scientific evidence also supports theories of intelligent design




Hope that helps...and i'm in party B

Isn't Intelligent Design the theory thought up by a religion to disprove the theory of Evolution?

not entirely...there are many scientists that aren't religious...they just believe in a higher power based on the evidence they've observed...i mean, we all have to come to our own conclusions..

and it wasn't concocted to disprove evolution the same way evolution wasn't formed w/the intention to disprove religion...they are both formed out of trying to explain the origins of life scientifically