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October 15, 2008 @ 11:09 PM
Chahin

Post: 335

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: France

^since you don't need facts to believe that's normal
October 15, 2008 @ 11:17 PM
slugg

Post: 416

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: where ever the gubam...

This thread is like the biggest guide on how to write a run on sentence.

[SIZE="6"].[/SIZE] motherfucker, do you use it?
October 15, 2008 @ 11:28 PM
Ibn Egypt

Post: 9

Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: Nyc

^since you don't need facts to believe that's normal


What I mean is Knowledge of self, facts of life, and things of that nature.

When you look at religion the origins come from the same place.

Religion keeps people in a box in my eyes.
October 15, 2008 @ 11:29 PM
fffffut

Post: 1146

Join Date: Aug 2008

i try to be tolerant but i srsly fucking hate christians that talk about it all the time and shit
October 15, 2008 @ 11:44 PM
dmwalking

moderator

Post: 3686

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: New England

the case for intelligent design
this is a little long if you care to read...written by me a while back to another dude via pm...so pardon the typos, run ons, grammaticals, etc.


the only thing that i hope to accomplish w/this is to show you that not all christians are shove it down your throat, illogical types. I am a Christian. Not the greatest, but I am. And I've arrived at this point both spiritually AND logically.






en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein

Ok, let's consider the complexity of protein.

But before that, let's deal with the history of the theory of macro evolution. I'll keep it short. Pretty much, when they came up with that theory, it was before they knew how complex a single cell organism was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_membrane

So, what we're talking about is a bunch of atoms accidentally aligning themselves to form protein molecules. Then those molecules accidentally/coincidentally aligning themselves perfectly. Just considering the complexity of one kind of molecule necessary for a cell, it seems really improbable for it to replicate thousands of times over just to form a cell membrane.

How many protein molecules are needed for a cell membrane. Not how many kinds...how many molecules...specifically perfectly aligned protien molecules...how many are needed to form just the cell membrane alone? An awful lot. And we're only at the cell membrane.


So what we're talking about here, is millions of atoms accidentally coming together to form protein....and millions of protein molecules accidentally forming a cell membrane...then millions more molecules to form the complex DNA, nucleus, mitochondrea, endoplasmic reticulum....etc....ok, so, accidentally all these molecules just happened to collide and make a cell.

What gave the cell the instinct to replicate? It seems as if there's an intelligence to single celled organisms...they want to survive...they replicate...why? If they're just a blob of molecules accidentally formed, where would the need to replicate come from?
__________________


Ok, so now we have a single cell that replicates....what happened that one cell mutated? And why did some single cells, instead of remaining single cells, bind to eachother to form a larger creature? And as they were bound, what need did they have to evolve? There were no predators....they don't have the intelligence to think of a way to combat/avoid the elements...they're just accidents of complex molecule collision.

How long can single cells live? Cuz that would mean, if evolution takes millions of years, that these single cells would have to develop into clusters and replicate into clusters...and those clusters would have to mutate and continue to mutate until they got to some sort of other creature. But again, why would they have this instinct? If DNA determines what a cell will do, how did this accidental collision of molecules accidentally mutate to become something else?


But we have other creatures. So that means that not only did one single cell mutate into something else but many. Cuz I may be wrong, but were early creatures asexual? Could they reproduce w/out a partner? If so, why the need to change sexes? If not, how did one animal procreate? How did two accidents mutate seperately but compatible enough to procreate?

So mathematically, it's just improbable. Even using an old earth model it's improbable. Random molecules perfectly align to make a cell. The cell replicates. They continue to replicate for no reason. Then they mutate. Then continue to mutate into animals. Then the animals, for no reason develop sexes...make millions of different species...they turn into other things....the laws of probability suggest that this is impossible in the amount of time given....I'll leave it alone. I'm sure you get the point.
__________________


Anyway,

Imagine I give you a hand full of building blocks. Like the kindergarten alphabet blocks. Let's say, 10 blocks. I say, throw them in the air until they land perfectly in a single column. How long will it take for that to happen due to random chance? And if it does happen, how long will it take for it to happen again? How about a million times over?

Well, you may say, eventually I could learn how to make them land in a perfect column...but then, it's no longer to due to random chance...you've crossed the line into intelligent design.

Now using that analogy, we're only talking 10 little blocks...what about millions of atoms and molecules perfectly aligning (accidentally) and then having a nucleus that decides to replicate and by chance these clones mutate and mutate again and again and again...mutation having to be entirely due to chance...etc...it's just improbable.


Why would a sea creature find the desired to live on land if it's surviving perfectly fine in the water? And how did that creature find a compatible randomly mutated land animal to mate with?

To me it just points to intelligent design.

And that's not even talking about the complexity of the eye.
__________________

Last name Ever, first name Worst Mod

October 16, 2008 @ 12:24 AM
Vince.

Post: 307

Join Date: Jan 2007

this is a little long if you care to read...written by me a while back to another dude via pm...so pardon the typos, run ons, grammaticals, etc.


the only thing that i hope to accomplish w/this is to show you that not all christians are shove it down your throat, illogical types. I am a Christian. Not the greatest, but I am. And I've arrived at this point both spiritually AND logically.


i agree with you completely. i can't imagine anything seriously believing that everything is the result of some accidents.
October 16, 2008 @ 12:29 AM
FVisILL

Post: 399

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: Harrisburg, PA

I understand and somewhat respect every persons religion as long as they arent bigot bible thumpers. But as an atheist I just have a hard time grasping how people believe in God. No offense to Christians, Im cool with the whole thing. It just gets me a little.
October 16, 2008 @ 12:31 AM
Flatland Funk

Post: 4144

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Lauderhill,Fl

^its not accidents. Evolution occured over the course of billions of years. Organisms adapted to their environments. I grew up catholic but as of now im having a hard time belive in any religion. The whole thing is just sorta ridiculous. The whole god created the world in 7 days thing has been disproven. A lot of the stuff in the bible has been disproven. Water first came about on this planet from passing comets. Not on some random day god decided to put it there. There was no noahs ark. How could there be adam and eve if the theory of evolution has been proven? The story of adam and eve goes something like "god put them on the earth and they were the first humans blah blah blah". Dinosaurs came way before these "first humans" and shit like trilobites and crazy ass ocean scorpians came way before the dinosaurs.

Come on son.... open your eyes.


EDIT: to vince.

I agree with FV. if theres a god it cannot be proven. but it also cannot be abandoned. But id rather be a man of science/fact than hopes/faith
October 16, 2008 @ 12:35 AM
FVisILL

Post: 399

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: Harrisburg, PA

^ Samzies to Flatland
October 16, 2008 @ 12:41 AM
Flatland Funk

Post: 4144

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Lauderhill,Fl

Yea bro. fuckin first 3 weeks of geolgoy and we learned all this shit. Im just saying why believe in something blindly if it really has no proof.
October 16, 2008 @ 12:44 AM
FVisILL

Post: 399

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: Harrisburg, PA

Its confusing that in a world today with everything so fucked up that people still believe is God. Its not fate, I feel like people need to start pointing blame for whats going on.
October 16, 2008 @ 12:56 AM
dmwalking

moderator

Post: 3686

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: New England

i don't really wanna get into this debate man...but i'll adress a few things.


^its not accidents. Evolution occured over the course of billions of years. Organisms adapted to their environments.


you didn't read what i wrote homie...if life started of from one organism, the probability of all the appropriate molecules to align perfectly, over and over and over again, in a short enough time span for the organism to live....well, it's very improbable....and how did that single cell adapt? to what? what gave it the instinct to multiply and those clones to mutate into something different?

The whole god created the world in 7 days thing has been disproven. A lot of the stuff in the bible has been disproven. Water first came about on this planet from passing comets.


sorry, but that's a theory...you can't disprove a theory w/a counter theory.....how can they prove it if no one was around? And even if it is true, how does that disprove the theory of intelligent design? It really doesn't.


How could there be adam and eve if the theory of evolution has been proven?


your correction is in your statement...evolution is still a theory...not fact...there's still much to explain...for example my first point...the original organism is an accident...if it's not then you're admitting it was intelligent design. Missing links everywhere....discrepancies in carbon dating...that's why it's still a theory.



my eyes are open...plus, i'm a civil man....i don't win debates by acting as if my opponent's a fool for believing in his theory...i see how he's gotten there...i win by presenting logical questions...I can't prove that GOD is real, but I can provide facts that will make you consider that intelligent design isn't totally illogical...and i can present evidence that the bible must have been written by a higher intelligence.

Trust me doggie, i'm not all pass the offering plate and shuck and jive...i do my research.



feel free to pm me if you wanna keep going...personally, i kinda want this thread to die.

Last name Ever, first name Worst Mod

October 16, 2008 @ 01:01 AM
HEIST.

Post: 1773

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: Beautiful Vanity B.C...

+1.

At the end of the day, everyone has beliefs. Whether you think they are wrong or whether you think they are right, it really doesn't matter.

Don't attack my religion and I won't attack you.

You keep living your life while I keep living mine.

End of story.


truth.
October 16, 2008 @ 01:04 AM
randomgrandeur

Post: 1824

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: mASS, emphasis on th...

+1.

At the end of the day, everyone has beliefs. Whether you think they are wrong or whether you think they are right, it really doesn't matter.

Don't attack my religion and I won't attack you.

You keep living your life while I keep living mine.

End of story.


smile
October 16, 2008 @ 01:08 AM
Ed.Hooligan

Post: 1256

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: Dubai, UAE / Crook C...

Just to clear up something that was in the first post of this thread, the example was something along the lines of other religions like buddhism and Islam "not believing in Jesus Christ"...I'm a Muslim. We believe in Jesus. Now we don't believe in Jesus being God, and the son of God, etc etc....in fact, personally (and this is not the Muslim standpoint), but I think the idea of the 'divine trinity' is sort of hard to grasp and paradoxical. I don't want to say illogical because I'm taught to respect other religions. And I have never gotten back a decent response, only thing I get back is "its the miracle of God." BUT thats a whole nother topic. Point is, Muslims believe in Jesus as a Prophet and a Messenger. We believe in the Bible, but we also believe that the original teachings of Jesus were lost after his crucifiction.


And to all the religulous (sp? ) athiests out there....why are y'all niiggas so pissed that some people need to follow a specific faith to find spiritual contentment and happiness in their lives? Those who don't believe in God always seem to be mad @ those who do, like our choice in life impacts you or our supposed "ignorance" means enough for you to rant on and on. I'm happy doing what I do, believing in God, and you're happy not...everybody do what they see fit.

So, if no God exists as y'all believe, when we all die, all of us who believe in a God will look ignorant and we'll all just rot. BUT, if we die and Y'ALL niiggas are all wrong, then God's gonna body the shit out of y'all


my $0.02

unooo

www.soundcloud.com/EdHooligan

October 16, 2008 @ 01:17 AM
N1QUE

Post: 1137

Join Date: Dec 2007

dm, that was a good read. thanks bro.
October 16, 2008 @ 02:22 AM
minimalist.

Post: 445

Join Date: Feb 2008

^its not accidents. Evolution occured over the course of billions of years.


Yes, but that in itself, the complexity of evolution could not have just been a random accident, everything in this world, no, universe, is TOO perfectly built, too perfectly put together in such a complex manner that there had to be some sort of intelligent designer behind all this.

Think about the universe and its infinite and completely unexplorable vastness. There are BILLIONS and BILLIONS of other planets and stars, let alone from our own solar system. The fact that the universe has not collapsed on itself yet, after how many years, can't have been a miracule.

Just looking at our own solar system, how each planet has its own course through space that does not physically interefere with the other planets causing mass destruction because each planet is set PERFECTLY in the appropriate place, at a very, very specific distance from each other so as to not cause catastrophe...our solar system just had to be intelligently designed, this is too perfect to happen by chance. If the moon was any closer to earth, it would've crashed into us by now.

All that stuff that dmwalking was talking about how complicated things are at the atomic level, let alone how complicated the eye is...now think about it on a even bigger scale. How much more complex is the human body compared to the atom? Exponential. How much more complex is the earth compared to the atom? Exponential? How much more complex is our solar system compared to the atom? Exponential! Now how much more complex is the universe compared to the atom which it is made of? Infinitely more complex. How could everything be so perfectly put together by random chance? I could compare this to dmwalkin's example of throwing 10 blocks in the air, but if we think about the complexity of the universe and everything inside it, that's like throwing 9,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 blocks in the air and hoping they all stand in a straight line by chance.

My point is just that the beauty of the world that we breathe in, and the complexity of the universe that our world is placed in, is just too perfectly designed to be made randomly or by accident. I'd like to think that someone, an omni-potent being, had planned it all out, and designed it with more precision and beauty than Leonardo da Vinci could ever dream of.

The whole god created the world in 7 days thing has been disproven.


Actually, there's an old rebuttal that I think was made famous by the Scopes "Monkey" Trial of 1925, which I learned about from a novel called Inherit The Wind. They say that back then, time was never existent because the concept of "time" is man-made, and there we no men back then to count how long a "day" really was. In fact, a day could have been 7,000,000 million years for all we know, and 7 days could have been 49,000,000 years all together, which would still mean that God created the world in "7" days through a process called evolution (who says God did not think of evolution himself? ). The novel made readers thing about the relationship between Science and Religion, and how they could possibly go hand in hand.

Also, go look up St. Thomas' Five Proofs of God's Existence, it's an interesting read, for those who don't believe in a God, and those who do. Here's one proof:

First Way: The Argument From Motion
St. Thomas Aquinas, studying the works of the Greek philsopher Aristotle, concluded from common observation that an object that is in motion (e.g. the planets, a rolling stone) is put in motion by some other object or force. From this, Aquinas believes that ultimately there must have been an UNMOVED MOVER (GOD) who first put things in motion. Follow the agrument this way:
1) Nothing can move itself.
2) If every object in motion had a mover, then the first object in motion needed a mover.
3) This first mover is the Unmoved Mover, called God.


Basically what this is saying is, let's pretend you see dominoes standing up perfectly in an intricate and elaborate pattern, and from the corner of your eye, you seem them start falling down, one after the other, hitting each other and causing the next one to fall down. I ask you, "How could have these dominoes started to fall?" and a normal person would answer, "Well, someone must have pushed the first domino, obviously." That is exactly who God is, that first pusher, the first mover, the great designer of all things. The origin of our complex universe, as explained by the big bang theory, is in itself one huge domino effect, and this theory can be applied to it. How could our world be so perfectly built, our planet and the others so perfectly situated, our universe so infinitely vast...how could have it all came to be?

Well, there must have been a pusher.


Yah, thats my 2 cents, and I don't expect to turn anyone into a believer (in fact, I anticipate people will be extremely critical of my views), nor am I forcing anyone to believe it, just wanted to say what I wanted to say. I've heard almost everything that could aid in my disbelief in God, but I'm very firm of where I stand.

<3
October 16, 2008 @ 02:32 AM
Calborn

Post: 1599

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: BAY, CALIFAS

Believe in what you gotta believe, but believe in the Truth.

As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do.

October 16, 2008 @ 07:08 AM
1234

Post: 1646

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: toronto

Just to clear up something that was in the first post of this thread, the example was something along the lines of other religions like buddhism and Islam "not believing in Jesus Christ"...I'm a Muslim. We believe in Jesus. Now we don't believe in Jesus being God, and the son of God, etc etc....in fact, personally (and this is not the Muslim standpoint), but I think the idea of the 'divine trinity' is sort of hard to grasp and paradoxical. I don't want to say illogical because I'm taught to respect other religions. And I have never gotten back a decent response, only thing I get back is "its the miracle of God." BUT thats a whole nother topic. Point is, Muslims believe in Jesus as a Prophet and a Messenger. We believe in the Bible, but we also believe that the original teachings of Jesus were lost after his crucifiction.


And to all the religulous (sp? ) athiests out there....why are y'all niiggas so pissed that some people need to follow a specific faith to find spiritual contentment and happiness in their lives? Those who don't believe in God always seem to be mad @ those who do, like our choice in life impacts you or our supposed "ignorance" means enough for you to rant on and on. I'm happy doing what I do, believing in God, and you're happy not...everybody do what they see fit.

So, if no God exists as y'all believe, when we all die, all of us who believe in a God will look ignorant and we'll all just rot. BUT, if we die and Y'ALL niiggas are all wrong, then God's gonna body the shit out of y'all


my $0.02

unooo


athiests arent mad at thosefor believing in god, i am mad at them for always thinking thy are superior, that they are better than others and other religions. and always preaching how, I am going to hell because i dont believe, when enough times, i;ve done more good deeds, and helped others in the world than some of these christians. I don't believe jesus and god wanted these christians to waste every sunday sitting around listening, i think it would be much mroe productive, if everyone got off their asses and contribute more to society, do more charity work.
October 16, 2008 @ 07:13 AM
1234

Post: 1646

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: toronto

just to mix things up a little, have anyone ever thought of maybe this intelligent design, was influenced by extraterresial life. that maybe god are aliens, and people back then simply can not explain events such as flying saucers, and saids those are gods flying chariots of fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAdMk_zpo20

this documentry is quite interesting. it has some very logical explanations such as people back then simply can not explain these events, so they call these people superior, higher being, god.
October 16, 2008 @ 07:14 AM
pnsho

Post: 6871

Join Date: Jan 2007

Ayo, thinking one religion is better than another is not cool.


/thread
October 16, 2008 @ 08:48 AM
Althis

Post: 636

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Pasadena, CA

i don't really wanna get into this debate man...but i'll adress a few things.




you didn't read what i wrote homie...if life started of from one organism, the probability of all the appropriate molecules to align perfectly, over and over and over again, in a short enough time span for the organism to live....well, it's very improbable....and how did that single cell adapt? to what? what gave it the instinct to multiply and those clones to mutate into something different?



sorry, but that's a theory...you can't disprove a theory w/a counter theory.....how can they prove it if no one was around? And even if it is true, how does that disprove the theory of intelligent design? It really doesn't.




your correction is in your statement...evolution is still a theory...not fact...there's still much to explain...for example my first point...the original organism is an accident...if it's not then you're admitting it was intelligent design. Missing links everywhere....discrepancies in carbon dating...that's why it's still a theory.



my eyes are open...plus, i'm a civil man....i don't win debates by acting as if my opponent's a fool for believing in his theory...i see how he's gotten there...i win by presenting logical questions...I can't prove that GOD is real, but I can provide facts that will make you consider that intelligent design isn't totally illogical...and i can present evidence that the bible must have been written by a higher intelligence.

Trust me doggie, i'm not all pass the offering plate and shuck and jive...i do my research.



feel free to pm me if you wanna keep going...personally, i kinda want this thread to die.


first point, atoms randomly forming cells, it took billions of years for the first microorganisms to appear, they didnt get it just right in a matter of days, ever heard of the saying if you put an infinite amount of monkeys on typewriters you'll get all written works in the world?

second point, it's not a theory if its based on a book written thousands of years ago with out any physical evidence, comets are mainly water and carbon, elements for life in short, it's certainly more plausible than everything being created by a divine being at a whim


and adam and eve? come on you gotta be jokin, god gets some dust makes a model and breathes life into him? then he takes his rib and makes a woman? that sounds like somethin a crack addict would say, evolution has been proved many times over with darwin, remnants found in africa etc etc.

and PLEASE show us how it was written by "higher intelligence" i would love to see explain how the bible is true and not just stories promoting and showing good morals and behavior?
October 16, 2008 @ 08:58 AM
dmwalking

moderator

Post: 3686

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: New England

athiests arent mad at thosefor believing in god, i am mad at them for always thinking thy are superior, that they are better than others and other religions. and always preaching how, I am going to hell because i dont believe, when enough times, i;ve done more good deeds, and helped others in the world than some of these christians. I don't believe jesus and god wanted these christians to waste every sunday sitting around listening, i think it would be much mroe productive, if everyone got off their asses and contribute more to society, do more charity work.


i agree

Last name Ever, first name Worst Mod

October 16, 2008 @ 09:14 AM
Subsistence.

Post: 1075

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Perth, Aus

This thread is too long to read now.

Can somebody who's been following it sum up the major points being debated?
October 16, 2008 @ 09:29 AM
whs

Post: 986

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: NYC

Man created god in his own image.

this debate is stupid and never goes anywhere wooooooooo

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/461/nonibenefits007ai7.jpg

October 16, 2008 @ 09:35 AM
dmwalking

moderator

Post: 3686

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: New England

first point, atoms randomly forming cells, it took billions of years for the first microorganisms to appear, they didnt get it just right in a matter of days, ever heard of the saying if you put an infinite amount of monkeys on typewriters you'll get all written works in the world?


you cannot separate math from science...probability is part of math...macro evolution is mathematically improbable...

that's why i initially cited that wiki about the structure of protein...dog, we're talking about a molecular structure, by random chance coming together perfectly trillions and trillions of times over...and like i said, we know that single cells die quickly,so it's also improbably for those proteins to bind to form a cell membrane fast enough to produce something living..and that's just the cell membrane...not including the nucleus or other cellular functions. By random chance, it's not probable.




second point, it's not a theory if its based on a book written thousands of years ago with out any physical evidence, comets are mainly water and carbon, elements for life in short, it's certainly more plausible than everything being created by a divine being at a whim


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
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Last name Ever, first name Worst Mod

October 16, 2008 @ 09:40 AM
dmwalking

moderator

Post: 3686

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: New England

This thread is too long to read now.

Can somebody who's been following it sum up the major points being debated?


intelligent design/creation vs random chance/evolution is always long and involved....


Don't know how to summarize...i guess it goes something like this.

PARTY A
Religion is a joke...there is no god..the idea of god is illogical...evolution is fact...life is but a mere accidental collision of atoms


PARTY B
Religion is not a joke and some people have come to that conclusion logically...evolution is still a theory...macro evolution is flawed and improbable...scientific evidence also supports theories of intelligent design




Hope that helps...and i'm in party B smile

Last name Ever, first name Worst Mod

October 16, 2008 @ 09:47 AM
Subsistence.

Post: 1075

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Perth, Aus

scientific evidence also supports theories of intelligent design


Isn't Intelligent Design the theory thought up by a religion to disprove the theory of Evolution?
October 16, 2008 @ 09:51 AM
dmwalking

moderator

Post: 3686

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: New England

Isn't Intelligent Design the theory thought up by a religion to disprove the theory of Evolution?


not entirely...there are many scientists that aren't religious...they just believe in a higher power based on the evidence they've observed...i mean, we all have to come to our own conclusions..

and it wasn't concocted to disprove evolution the same way evolution wasn't formed w/the intention to disprove religion...they are both formed out of trying to explain the origins of life scientifically

Last name Ever, first name Worst Mod

October 16, 2008 @ 10:03 AM
Subsistence.

Post: 1075

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Perth, Aus

Well as useless as what I will now say will be (without anything to back it up), I've watched documentary's and had several debates with science lecturers, all which disprove Intelligent Design through one particular organism.

If I find the documentary's again, I'll post links.

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