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May 2, 2008 @ 07:00 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

You musta never been to a sweatshop before or else your words would have been more sympathetic. So I'll give some insight on sweatshops because I've visited a couple in Bangkok. Hostile conditions, long hours, alot of regulations to produce a certain amount of shoes in little time, chaos. That is what I felt from one of the Nike ones. Who most say are at the leading forefront for sweatshop ethics.sad


I try to be empathetic. I myself come from a very poor background and have seen the usage of the underclass by the Bourgeoisie first hand. However, as sad as it is to see my grandmother working hard hours at a factory for over 20 years, I understand that this is the only job around for someone with a 3rd grade education with little to no English.

I don't like to oversimplify situations. Your description of the sweatshop does not dismiss the questions I raised.
May 2, 2008 @ 08:17 PM
southwest55

Post: 1331

Join Date: Apr 2008

If jesus is God why did he say "god why has thou forsaken me" when he died on the cross.
May 2, 2008 @ 08:19 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

Great answer but it strikes me as just false information that has been fed to the masses.

And no offense, but references to Karl Marx's "bourgeoisie" doesn't make you sound more intelligent. All you needed to do was call them middle to higher class.


There's your error in thinking, religion can't exactly be classified as "information." And if you think my Talmudic and Christian academic knowledge is of a form easily available to the public, you're wrong. Most people don't have the time to bother learning about Maimonides or Augustine.

To your second, irrelevant point: "bourgeoisie" is a simple word which came into usage before Marx. There was a dispute in the first Virginia Assembly between the working farmers and the so-called "Bourgeoisie" who owned plantations. Just as a historical example. So, I was not referencing Marx at all, by using the word. But sense we are on that topic, Marx does not consider the Middle Class the "Bourgeoisie." He explicitly states that there is no Middle Class, in his view, since the so called Middle Class is still employed by the Bourgeoisie and do not own their own property.
May 2, 2008 @ 09:03 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

Actually all that emodies a religion is in the form of "information." What else would religious people rely on, hearsay?


I think the key to religion is belief and faith, and more precisely the experience of Faith. I don't think either of these things are akin to "information." Information is akin to Knowledge, Religion is akin to Belief. Are you following?


I know what bourgeoisie is, and of its definition before Marx. I only said Marx as an example because he was famous for using the term. I was only pointing out how lame it was to use the word, when you could have easily said higher class. That is all.


I don't get it. Bourgeoisie is a pretty common term when discussing Sociological matters. I think the sweatshop issue falls under that.
May 2, 2008 @ 09:46 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

I follow but I fail to make the connection. It's rather vague to say it like how you have done in your opinion.

Are you saying that without "written literature", religion can exist?


Hmm not exactly, although the first religions did not have texts and weren't based around any. I'm just saying that there is no correlation to be made between a religious text and information. Think about it this way, would a Muslim and a Christian read the Bible in the same way?

Or logically its as simple as, do you think of the same sense for the word "information" as you do for the word "belief."
May 2, 2008 @ 10:02 PM
PR3TTYnihkee

Post: 996

Join Date: Apr 2008

Location: Toronto

This thread is going to be never ending..
May 2, 2008 @ 10:08 PM
JKISSI

Post: 3015

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: THE BRONX

^ seriously.. but i enjoy reading .. esp kickapop responses lol
May 2, 2008 @ 10:09 PM
PR3TTYnihkee

Post: 996

Join Date: Apr 2008

Location: Toronto

I didnt bother to read it all. I read the first 2 pages in class when I was bored.
May 2, 2008 @ 10:20 PM
aran nasir

Post: 235

Join Date: Nov 2007

hmmm this dude SK1 is wise
May 2, 2008 @ 11:04 PM
LogIc

Post: 1383

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: North side of the Ro...

there is some good debatable information in here...too bad im too lazy to read...o well

are u an atheist kick?...or do u believe in a higher being but just reject religious teachings?
May 2, 2008 @ 11:32 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

Actually I would. I believe in information that is correct is valid. That was why I used the term information; meaning the absolute truth.

What religion are you talking about? Because as far as time, people have used carving as a form of writing before a common language was acknowledged.


But you're using the word information incorrectly, as information does not mean "the absolute truth."

Writing does not stretch far back into time, it was invented around the 4th millennium BC (3500BC) in Mesopotamia. This is how we use the terms "history" and "pre-history", history beginning at the time of the invention of writing, and everything before that being almost unknowable to us without written records. There were undoubtedly Pre-Historic religions. So my point is, religion has existed before the time of the invention of writing, therefore written literature is not a prerequisite for religion.

So as an example, from the accounts of the Chinese, Central Asians, and Arabs, we know that Genghis Khan was an extremely religious man. He was in fact considered a religious leader, so to speak, among the Mongols. Genghis Khan practiced a sort of Shamanistic, natural religion, although we do not know much about it. He was quoted as saying, "God has given me dominion of the earth" which was why he and the Mongols could not be defeated. The Mongols at this time, 13th century AD, had no written language.
May 2, 2008 @ 11:40 PM
N1QUE

Post: 1137

Join Date: Dec 2007

hmmm this dude SK1 is wise


very..
May 2, 2008 @ 11:51 PM
LogIc

Post: 1383

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: North side of the Ro...

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in anything except my hands and mind which dictates my life.


lol...but why?...dont you believe in cause and affect..everything comes from something right?..just because we cant perceive it doesn't mean that its not there..i just feel that many people who are atheist let the corruption of religion guide them away from the concept of God. it seems like you hate religion so much that you refuse to believe that there is a God.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:00 AM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

That was precisely what I was trying to explain. My interpretation of the usage of "information" so you weren't flustered.

So you wouldn't consider cave drawings an interpretation of a writing tool because it has infact been dated back 30,000 plus years.


I think drawing and writing are two different things.

Also, even by your usage of the word information as "absolute truth" it is still not applicable to religion. Christianity, as I've said before, is centered on Faith and Belief, not "absolute truths." (What even is an "absolute truth"confused

Religion requires you to remove knowledge for belief.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:02 AM
nealgoodlife

Post: 178

Join Date: Oct 2007

lol...but why?...dont you believe in cause and affect..everything comes from something right?..just because we cant perceive it doesn't mean that its not there..i just feel that many people who are atheist let the corruption of religion guide them away from the concept of God. it seems like you hate religion so much that you refuse to believe that there is a God.


I believe in Cause and effect, which results me in believing in a being that had to start something,

but i dont understand how someone, could believe in a christian god,
im not going to mention, all the flaws of the religon, but simply being a black man...the religon was forced on to my ancestors without their own will..how can I put faith in that...
May 3, 2008 @ 12:07 AM
LogIc

Post: 1383

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: North side of the Ro...

^im in the same boat as you....im not a firm believer in Christianity or any religion for that matter..but.u have to understand that its the people that went about teaching it the way it was taught...fukin up the Indians and making then convert to Christianity and doing the same to slaves..the teachings where already written, its the stupid idiot british pussies that had to be all hypocritical with it
May 3, 2008 @ 12:14 AM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

Exactly, Christ didn't found the Catholic Church, neither did any of his Apostles. He founded a movement, not a Religious or Political Organization. That came 400 years after his death during the Roman Empire, and the political power came 350 years later when Rome fell. That's a total of 750 years after Christ's death. Although neal does make an important point.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:35 AM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

Writing is defined as tracing characters, letters, words. etc. so I used it.

Yes I do agree that Christianity is based on faith, but what dictates their faith is what's in the Bible which can only be true or false. There is no in between.

Removing knowledge for faith is not entirely true at all. One cannot find God without text. It is just impossible to think otherwise.


You're proving my point. As you do not believe in the Bible, you view it as information, as literature, as either true or false. But for the believer this is not the case. Its the Testament of God. You're missing the importance of the experience a Christian has while reading the Bible. It isn't simply "information" or "knowledge." Since you are an atheist, you have not had this experience, and therefore it may be hard, probably impossible, for you to understand this concept.

Whether the idea of removing knowledge for faith or belief is true or not is missing the point, it is the essence of Faith, believing in something "in spite of."
Example: "I believe Lazarus rose from the Dead, because I have faith in that belief." It's almost paradoxical. Knowledge will challenge this belief, but for the believer it simply does not matter. Why? Because of their Faith, their experience of it being so strong they will dismiss whatever knowledge may contradict it for their Belief.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:38 AM
LogIc

Post: 1383

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: North side of the Ro...

I do believe in cause and effect but only human nature controls that. If I shoot someone, I will go to jail. Period. And to answer your second question, my parents are mildly Buddhist so I grew up apart of that "lifestyle" so there was little hate for God or religion in general. It is only through classes I have taken in the past and just my overall experiences in life that have led me to my final thoughts. And not all religions believe in God too.



only human nature controls it??...I'm talking about cause and effect thats beyond our control.....if you look at the pattern of human life and how everything evolves and blend together, it just doesn't seem like something that just happens without any explanation, there had to be something that designed this world.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:38 AM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

Yeah but his teachings and beliefs were written in the gospels. In a way it was greater than a movement because of that.


It was greater because it was revolutionary, the Gospels weren't the first and only religious texts circulating around the Roman Empire.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:40 AM
LogIc

Post: 1383

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: North side of the Ro...

You're proving my point. As you do not believe in the Bible, you view it as information, as literature, as either true or false. But for the believer this is not the case. Its the Testament of God. You're missing the importance of the experience a Christian has while reading the Bible. It isn't simply "information" or "knowledge." Since you are an atheist, you have not had this experience, and therefore it may be hard, probably impossible, for you to understand this concept.

Whether the idea of removing knowledge for faith or belief is true or not is missing the point, it is the essence of Faith, believing in something "in spite of."
Example: "I believe Lazarus rose from the Dead, because I have faith in that belief." It's almost paradoxical. Knowledge will challenge this belief, but for the believer it simply does not matter. Why? Because of their Faith, their experience of it being so strong they will dismiss whatever knowledge may contradict it for their Belief.


wow..good point
but their should also be a limit to faith..and thats where logic and reason should come in....beliefs based entirely on faith seems like brainwash to me...very good point tho
May 3, 2008 @ 11:59 AM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

But you're the one who made the bold statement of removing knowledge for faith or belief. Would you like to take it back? It's unfathomable that someone who lives deep in the jungle of Ha Long Bay for example, would be able to "find God" without text.


No, why would I? Its the essence of Faith.

As I've shown repeatedly and clearly, Religion existed long before humans had written language. Cave paintings are not written language, and I think it would be rather hard to find a cave painting from 40,000 years ago and prove it was religious in composition. You realize that many indigenous tribes did not have texts, and yet had religions?
I even gave you an historical example, Genghis Khan said he found God by meditating on a holy mountain, and that God gave him dominion of the earth. He read no written text to come to this conclusion, he came to it by himself.
May 3, 2008 @ 12:09 PM
pikafire69

Post: 716

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: the diamond district

I am god, so I can do whatever I want. I simply chose to observe rather than act. I choose not to prove my power, but I could do so at any point in time if I really wanted to. I created all of you. prove me wrong!!
May 3, 2008 @ 03:09 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

I am god, so I can do whatever I want. I simply chose to observe rather than act. I choose not to prove my power, but I could do so at any point in time if I really wanted to. I created all of you. prove me wrong!!


Logically there would be no way to prove you wrong. But my belief tells me you are ;-)
May 4, 2008 @ 01:20 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

I'd rather keep that personal, but I'm not Christian or Muslim.
May 4, 2008 @ 05:09 PM
TheFlash

Post: 327

Join Date: May 2007

Location: 215/State College

SK1 and Kickapop could debate about the nature of Faith forever. You cant argue against faith, it is just impossible, you can not disprove nor can you prove God exists because for religious people, faith transcends their logic and reason.
It's when people impose their religious beliefs on society is when it becomes a problem (which will happen for as long as religion exists). Like when people want to deny the right of two homo's to get married or people want to use religious belief to inhibit the progress of invaluable scientific research. Or in the case of Islam, totally control the entire world
May 4, 2008 @ 05:17 PM
soulamazing.

Post: 5498

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Adverse City.

^^^ Dude speaks the truth. Mod should just shut this thread down, because honestly, this debate's never going to end. SoMe1 shUd jus loKc 'diS 4 rEaL.
May 4, 2008 @ 05:49 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: mA$$

This thread isn't about proving anything or getting another user to agree with you. It's about discussing Christianity and religion as a whole. There's nothing wrong with having a good discussion.
May 4, 2008 @ 06:36 PM
pikafire69

Post: 716

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: the diamond district

why should it be shut down? that's dumb.
May 4, 2008 @ 07:14 PM
TheFlash

Post: 327

Join Date: May 2007

Location: 215/State College

never said thread should be shut down, its an interesting topic to debate about, one that people have very strong opinions about
LMAO at calling out Islam like that.

jihad isnt just in the middle east, its a global front. but this thread is about christianity sorry to get off topic

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