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April 24, 2008 @ 12:35 AM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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both sound equally ridiculous to me. if someone created it then how the fuck were they themselves created? oh yea they just "were." same shit. who cares.

btw, just curious. how old are the regular posters in this thread? i for one am 19.


How do you believe that the universe came to be?

And I
April 24, 2008 @ 12:36 AM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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you are right that it is not logical that the universe just was. no one is saying that. we're all just saying god is fake and didnt create the universe.


Again, I
April 24, 2008 @ 12:36 AM
rabboarder

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well no one knows but god can be ruled out for sure.


And why is that?
April 24, 2008 @ 12:36 AM
rabboarder

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could there have been gases that when combined formed solid matter?

if thats the case, then the creation of the universe as we know it can be easily explained


Stanley Miller at the University of Chicago conducted an experiment in which he recreated the atmosphere of the primitive earth in a laboratory and shot electricity through it to simulate the effects of lightning. Before long, he found that amino acids
April 24, 2008 @ 12:37 AM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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does god have the power to kill himself?

but to cheep. i think at that point, you are no longer talking about a god. you beleive that there was a creator. that's cool. i can see why one might beleive that, there is not much known about the origins of the universe. but you beleive that he plays no part in your day to day life? do you beleive in an afterlife?


I don
April 24, 2008 @ 12:37 AM
rabboarder

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oh well. but what if youre wrong? what if muslims are right? what if hindus are right? what if wiccians are right? you cant do anything but live the best you can here, and hope for the best.


If I
April 24, 2008 @ 12:38 AM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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Let me twist this back at you. What if you're wrong? What if there is no GOD or religion? And poof, you're just done after death? I don't know about you but the human life beats any form of spiritual life anyday. That would mean you wasted your life and energy believing in something that is false.Unless you believe in reincarnation. Sitting in church for hours listening to a preacher and then dying.


Check my response to cheep.
April 24, 2008 @ 12:39 AM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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To all the bible thumpers out there do you go to church

Mat 6:5 and 6:6

" And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

This makes anybody who goes to church a hypocrite.


thanks to my ***** no0 for the quote


Open question to christians about their god, Can he create something so heavy even he cant lift it?


You
April 24, 2008 @ 01:04 AM
STI Guy

Post: 4516

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Again, I
April 24, 2008 @ 01:09 AM
STI Guy

Post: 4516

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i know you religious people always say, "nah you dont need proof, it's all about faith." when you think about, who the hell came up with all these damn rules?!?! PEOPLE.
April 24, 2008 @ 08:01 AM

Inactive

If I was angry, I would have bolded it. I CAPS the following so it'll be what stood out in my response. and I meant to say atheist thread. The thread was created by an atheist. So you're stating that since your dad was a merchant marine, he visited 95% of countries in the world? I highly doubt that, first of all, going to ports doesn't designate you apart of that culture. There is no integration whatsoever. That's like saying I went to the airport and Buenos Aires, so I've been to Argentina. Wrong.


No, merchant marines didn't used to be what it is today, they could actually get off the ship for days, and would stay there in each port for a week or more, so they could actually experience the city or whatever. Please believe, I am not exaggerating this, he sails for 8 months out of the year, for 30+ yrs. But this is irrelevant. I'm done with this thread, it seems everyone is extremely firm in their beliefs, but it was fun debating.
April 24, 2008 @ 08:04 AM
xxxx

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oh stop the BS about universe formation... how do you think it was made? god appear out of nowhere and made it? then why don't you answer "what made god"? because whatever you answer is, I can say the exact same for "what made universe" if i were as unscientific as you are.

all those people who talk about impossibilities for this universe to develop, how its unlikely things are the way they are this way, well imagine you are the very first bacteria on earth, you see the world today you would say that change is impossible to happen.

But through enough time, things do happen, although we know Earth was made billions of years ago, the idea of "time" is indefinite, meaning it might've been billions to the power of billions to the power of billions of years for the first bacteria to develop and for earth to take its shape.

and if bacteria is the first life form on Earth, and God made living things, I don't know how he would specify the genes of a bacterium down to a molecular level, unless hes got atomic sized fingers. human cannot exist without the existence of microbes.

get educated before you try to argue with me
April 24, 2008 @ 08:12 AM
CHEEP

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then why did you ned him to clarify? it was obvious that's what he was saying. anyway just trying to help.

not exactly. i dont think of "god" as a being. more a force. i dont think there was a conscious thought that went into creating the universe.

because i find it interesting that people feel the need to beleive in a higher being to have created the universe, without having any idea where that being came from. it seems that if you have the view that there is no sentient god guiding our lives, you would also be skeptical about a creator.


so where did your god come from?
April 24, 2008 @ 08:17 AM
CHEEP

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If I
April 24, 2008 @ 09:30 AM
pikafire69

Post: 716

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not exactly. i dont think of "god" as a being. more a force. i dont think there was a conscious thought that went into creating the universe.



so where did your god come from?


I am godless. Atheism FTW!
April 24, 2008 @ 09:32 AM
pikafire69

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I am godless. Atheism FTW!


I mean, i believe in forces that guide our lives: gravity, chaos, etc. but i wouldn't call any of that god.
April 24, 2008 @ 06:57 PM
DAT CAT

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You
April 24, 2008 @ 08:24 PM
SK1

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I think that, in the Western World, we are seeing a very large gap in education, which will continue to widen as science, psychology, and the Technocrats increase their power. The gap I am talking about is a proper education in Theology and Philosophy, especially in the secondary school years (13-1cool. What I am observing is a thought common in the society of an educated, intellectual person being an "Atheist," knowing Darwin's theory, psychology, etc etc. Meanwhile a "Theist," and especially "Christians" in the U.S. and Europe are thought of as brainwashed, irrational for belief in something unproven, not as educated, close minded etc etc. I will definitely point out that many Christians are these things, however that point does not distract me from the fact that many of the Atheist's beliefs and practices are no better than those long held by Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. The Philosopher Wittgenstein, in the early 20th century, said that today we view Science and Psychology just as the Greeks viewed Myth and Legend. But, for a Logistician such as Wittgenstein, this is illogical, since for him, and other mathematicians in the same mind such as Husserl, and of course Russell, there was no logical foundation for arithmetics and therefore mathematics, and led to Heidegger and others to question the foundation of Science and Psychology as well. What I mean by this is some of the questions surrounding God which the Atheist may view as easy pickings against a Christian, are the same questions which could be aimed at a Darwinist Atheist. The first thing to point out in resolving this matter is that Religion and Science are answering two different types of questions, and it is therefore not fair for an Atheist to try and use a Scientific explanation for the beginning of the Universe as contradiction to say: Genesis. Likewise, it is illogical to use a Psychological argument against the existence of a Soul or Morality, ethics, or justice. Therefore I think that the point the Atheists brings up often, that belief in God is unproven, or irrational etc, is in itself illogical, since many of the Atheists belief which lead him to this proposition have an unproven foundation themselves. Faith is key here, for a True Believer the question which an Atheist may rise against him, are not questions for him at all, those questions may not have been answered, or he may have given himself questions for those answers. The trouble which appears is when this Believer thinks he can get others to understand his answers or answer an Atheists question such as "prove God exists" etc. This is illogical, a person's faith should be there own, and this is something which should be understood by Christians as well as Atheists. Of course I find it troublesome that the teaching of atheistic works, such as the Origin of Species by Darwin is almost mandatory, while the great works of some Christian theologians, scientists, and philosophers are hardly even known to the general person any longer. There is much more readership in Christianity beyond merely the Bible, there is the two biggest names, Augustine and Aquinas, two names I think should be mandatory in a European Christian dominant world. But these names are barely spoken, and I think that the young intellectual, thrust into the world without knowledge of great theological and philosophical works, and only being confronted by atheistic material and theories such as the Big Bang, evolution, relativity etc, can very easily fall into the plague that is atheism. In my mind, this education is no better than the ignorant Christian brainwashing their child into an illusory faith. I think we must remember that some of the greatest minds in history, people who knew far more than we as individuals do, still were Christians, and proud to be. It is not very logical, in my mind, to simply dismiss an ideology that has persisted now for over 2,000 years. On that note I would like to suggest a book, The Gospels in Brief by Leo Tolstoy, who many consider to be one of the greatest writers of all time. Wittgenstein credited this book to keeping him alive while fighting in World War One, although, he was Jewish.

(note: I'm not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim)
April 24, 2008 @ 08:43 PM
SK1

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I never paragraph 'cause I just ramble.
April 24, 2008 @ 08:44 PM
SK1

Post: 1139

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I read through it in about 20 seconds before posting, you have no obligation to reading the shit anyway.
April 24, 2008 @ 09:43 PM
pikafire69

Post: 716

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: the diamond district

I think that, in the Western World, we are seeing a very large gap in education, which will continue to widen as science, psychology, and the Technocrats increase their power. The gap I am talking about is a proper education in Theology and Philosophy, especially in the secondary school years (13-1cool. What I am observing is a thought common in the society of an educated, intellectual person being an "Atheist," knowing Darwin's theory, psychology, etc etc. Meanwhile a "Theist," and especially "Christians" in the U.S. and Europe are thought of as brainwashed, irrational for belief in something unproven, not as educated, close minded etc etc. I will definitely point out that many Christians are these things, however that point does not distract me from the fact that many of the Atheist's beliefs and practices are no better than those long held by Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. The Philosopher Wittgenstein, in the early 20th century, said that today we view Science and Psychology just as the Greeks viewed Myth and Legend. But, for a Logistician such as Wittgenstein, this is illogical, since for him, and other mathematicians in the same mind such as Husserl, and of course Russell, there was no logical foundation for arithmetics and therefore mathematics, and led to Heidegger and others to question the foundation of Science and Psychology as well. What I mean by this is some of the questions surrounding God which the Atheist may view as easy pickings against a Christian, are the same questions which could be aimed at a Darwinist Atheist. The first thing to point out in resolving this matter is that Religion and Science are answering two different types of questions, and it is therefore not fair for an Atheist to try and use a Scientific explanation for the beginning of the Universe as contradiction to say: Genesis. Likewise, it is illogical to use a Psychological argument against the existence of a Soul or Morality, ethics, or justice. Therefore I think that the point the Atheists brings up often, that belief in God is unproven, or irrational etc, is in itself illogical, since many of the Atheists belief which lead him to this proposition have an unproven foundation themselves. Faith is key here, for a True Believer the question which an Atheist may rise against him, are not questions for him at all, those questions may not have been answered, or he may have given himself questions for those answers. The trouble which appears is when this Believer thinks he can get others to understand his answers or answer an Atheists question such as "prove God exists" etc. This is illogical, a person's faith should be there own, and this is something which should be understood by Christians as well as Atheists. Of course I find it troublesome that the teaching of atheistic works, such as the Origin of Species by Darwin is almost mandatory, while the great works of some Christian theologians, scientists, and philosophers are hardly even known to the general person any longer. There is much more readership in Christianity beyond merely the Bible, there is the two biggest names, Augustine and Aquinas, two names I think should be mandatory in a European Christian dominant world. But these names are barely spoken, and I think that the young intellectual, thrust into the world without knowledge of great theological and philosophical works, and only being confronted by atheistic material and theories such as the Big Bang, evolution, relativity etc, can very easily fall into the plague that is atheism. In my mind, this education is no better than the ignorant Christian brainwashing their child into an illusory faith. I think we must remember that some of the greatest minds in history, people who knew far more than we as individuals do, still were Christians, and proud to be. It is not very logical, in my mind, to simply dismiss an ideology that has persisted now for over 2,000 years. On that note I would like to suggest a book, The Gospels in Brief by Leo Tolstoy, who many consider to be one of the greatest writers of all time. Wittgenstein credited this book to keeping him alive while fighting in World War One, although, he was Jewish.

(note: I'm not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim)


asking someone to prove something is not illogical.
April 24, 2008 @ 09:45 PM
STI Guy

Post: 4516

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Location: nyc

wow i bet writing papers is a breeze for this dude.
April 25, 2008 @ 09:33 AM
SK1

Post: 1139

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asking someone to prove something is not illogical.


It is if their reasoning behind the question has no logical basis. For example in Christianity God is defined by Transcendental principles, these being Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.
Transcendent, in itself, means:
"1 a: exceeding usual limits : surpassing b: extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience"
So, to ask a Christian to "prove" something that is inherently defined as Transcendental, is a tautology (illogical).
Why? Well simply because our language, logically, is limited to our world, therefore to describe something which is defined as "beyond our world" in say, English, is senseless.
April 25, 2008 @ 11:17 AM
pikafire69

Post: 716

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: the diamond district

It is if their reasoning behind the question has no logical basis. For example in Christianity God is defined by Transcendental principles, these being Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.
Transcendent, in itself, means:
"1 a: exceeding usual limits : surpassing b: extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience"
So, to ask a Christian to "prove" something that is inherently defined as Transcendental, is a tautology (illogical).
Why? Well simply because our language, logically, is limited to our world, therefore to describe something which is defined as "beyond our world" in say, English, is senseless.

hmmmm... i completely disagree, but this is a battle of opinion, so there is no way to win. but yeah, that's not what a tautology is, just FYI.

but yeah, it raises the point that in religion, particularly religions founded on the judeo-christian god, anytime there is a question that cannot be explained by reason, the answer is "god." no further exploration or questioning. this is intellectually immature.
April 25, 2008 @ 12:35 PM
SK1

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hmmmm... i completely disagree, but this is a battle of opinion, so there is no way to win. but yeah, that's not what a tautology is, just FYI.

but yeah, it raises the point that in religion, particularly religions founded on the judeo-christian god, anytime there is a question that cannot be explained by reason, the answer is "god." no further exploration or questioning. this is intellectually immature.


That is "God of the Gaps", I don't see Christianity as doing that. (and that is what a tautology is, depending on which school of logic you follow, [the proposition in question I'm saying])
April 25, 2008 @ 12:42 PM
FlashinLeather

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Religion is a means for the elites to controll the masses by keeping them focused on the after life rather than the present life...Marx anyone
April 26, 2008 @ 12:47 AM
ifoo

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April 29, 2008 @ 01:19 PM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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YES! YES! AND NO ONE HAS EVER PROVEN IT BECAUSE HE'S NOT REAL!


Uh, there
April 29, 2008 @ 01:19 PM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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i know you religious people always say, "nah you dont need proof, it's all about faith." when you think about, who the hell came up with all these damn rules?!?! PEOPLE.


Lol, have you even read this whole thread? I can
April 29, 2008 @ 01:20 PM
rabboarder

Post: 568

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that verse makes me think that early christians had more faith in an earthly resurrection than an afterlife in heaven. actually, i know this is the case, as it was also the case in judiasim at the time.


I

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