Question for Atheists...

Oct 14, 2012 @ 02:36
im beyond religion. i believe in a higher power. i also believe that we have the potential to be greater beings in life. the third eye and elevating our consciousness to a higher level. we are the universe.
Oct 14, 2012 @ 04:47
I'd like to think that when you die you just dream. so whatever you're thinking of when you die becomes your reality. when I die ima be thinking about being god smokeyface
Oct 14, 2012 @ 12:47
Not really afraid of death, I just wanna outlive my mom. Nothing worse than a mother burying her son smh
Oct 14, 2012 @ 18:14
mother fuckers need to stop kissing the feet of ancient white liars who wrote a novel to control your minds.. free your soul to nature


Mohammed was white? LOL at nigs acting like Christianity was the only religion....and LOL again at thinking that a bunch of cats from the middle east are "white."


Arabs are Caucasian.
Oct 14, 2012 @ 19:19
I'd like to think that when you die you just dream. so whatever you're thinking of when you die becomes your reality. when I die ima be thinking about being god smokeyface


word. like a lucid state. idk how thatd be in any way plausible but it would be the dopest afterlife i could think of

pink like hamilton

Oct 14, 2012 @ 20:20
Originally posted by Inactive User
Where did our moral laws come from? God?


Being human and sympathy.


Where does sympathy come from? Intelligence, feelings, souls?
Can these be explained with the big bang and evolution?
Wouldn't evolution, survival of the fittest, dog eat dog make us more selfish?
John Locke's theory of the Social Contract my nigga. For humans, survival of the fittest isn't the same as it is for animals; the strongest/fastest/largest/etc. don't necessarily have the greatest chances of survival. It's the smartest that do; human value is weighed much more on intellect rather than brawn. Our leaders are the ones who know how to organize with others in order to benefit the greater good, not the people who are physically the strongest of the pack. Through the Social Contract, humans mutually agree to give up some of their freedom in order compensate for security and safety among one another.

God has no direct influence on our morals. I'm atheist, it doesn't mean I don't give a damn about anyone around me just because there's no higher power up there to judge me.
Oct 14, 2012 @ 23:24
Originally posted by Inactive User
Where did our moral laws come from? God?


Being human and sympathy.


Where does sympathy come from? Intelligence, feelings, souls?
Can these be explained with the big bang and evolution?
Wouldn't evolution, survival of the fittest, dog eat dog make us more selfish?


I'm no expert so you might find flaws in what I'm about to say, but...

I believe it comes from intelligence; when you come to a point when you're mature enough to realize that what you're doing is hurting others that's when you develop morals. Have you noticed kids do evil thing to other kids just because they're ignorant of their actions?

I don't think survival of the fittest applies to human how they do to other animals because we are at the top of the food chain and we don't have to hunt each other and kill each other to live. Now when applied to humans it changes to the smartest will survive and that doesn't take away from out morals.

John Locke's theory of the Social Contract my nigga. For humans, survival of the fittest isn't the same as it is for animals; the strongest/fastest/largest/etc. don't necessarily have the greatest chances of survival. It's the smartest that do; human value is weighed much more on intellect rather than brawn. Our leaders are the ones who know how to organize with others in order to benefit the greater good, not the people who are physically the strongest of the pack. Through the Social Contract, humans mutually agree to give up some of their freedom in order compensate for security and safety among one another.

God has no direct influence on our morals. I'm atheist, it doesn't mean I don't give a damn about anyone around me just because there's no higher power up there to judge me.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 00:15
that doesnt quite explain how intelligence breeds moral, can we see this moral from a human thats lived in forests and jungles for their whole life? because theres still cannibal tribes out there.. a human with "no understanding" it seems.. furthermore they worship some form of god in their own way because its just natural for a human to do so, no matter what continent, natives naturally believe in some god.. anyways thats getting away from the point

my question: if evolution and natural selection is all about adapting, how come it didnt happen on the other planets within our solar system? couldnt a cell evolve into something that could just live off the planet's environment? whether it be some sort of plant or animal, surely something could evolve to adapt to the environment to make a greater environment, so many different animals here with crazy abilities yet theres nothing else out there, and why could it only work on earth and not other planets?

secondly, how did the structure of evolution come about, what made its push for natural selection? where did this "blue print" of natural selection come from? how did different cells know how to react with other cells if after all were a result from a RANDOM bang?
Oct 15, 2012 @ 00:17
No.

Twitter: @TheYoungWagner IG: ThaYoungWagner Tumblr: theyoungwagner.tumblr.com

Oct 15, 2012 @ 00:17
Terrified. Just as scared as every one of us. Difference is, I don't latch on to a fairytale for some sort of blind sense of comfort. I simply don't let the fear of death stop me from living. If anything, knowing that this life is ALL we have, I value it that much more.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 00:41
mother fuckers need to stop kissing the feet of ancient white liars who wrote a novel to control your minds.. free your soul to nature


RNS

quoted this on twitter for truth.

patxpeterson.com | youmaddoggy.com

Oct 15, 2012 @ 02:07
that doesnt quite explain how intelligence breeds moral, can we see this moral from a human thats lived in forests and jungles for their whole life? because theres still cannibal tribes out there.. a human with "no understanding" it seems.. furthermore they worship some form of god in their own way because its just natural for a human to do so, no matter what continent, natives naturally believe in some god.. anyways thats getting away from the point


In those same tribes they do have morals they probably don't live up to ours because like I said, and no offense, those tribes survive as animals. And the reason people believed in a higher power is because they needed a reason to explain natural phenomenon like the sun rising or solar eclipse. We have science that can prove and show how these occurrences occur. Before we had scientist Greeks believed a giant man held up that Earth, but now that we have science that can disprove this we can refute it. Christians believed that God existed in the heavens in the clouds, but now that we've been passed the clouds they have to change where their heavens exist. The Bible has too many contradictions and science that disproves it.

P.s. Those Gods that the tribes believe in aren't an almighty deitety they belive in what they can see "Sun Gods and Animals Gods" so that makes their Gods more believable than yours.

my question: if evolution and natural selection is all about adapting, how come it didnt happen on the other planets within our solar system? couldnt a cell evolve into something that could just live off the planet's environment? whether it be some sort of plant or animal, surely something could evolve to adapt to the environment to make a greater environment, so many different animals here with crazy abilities yet theres nothing else out there, and why could it only work on earth and not other planets?



Because evolution is talking about EARTH it's a theory based on what we've seen on EARTH. That's like saying why haven't all black people move to Israel since the Nazi's drove the Jews from Germany. Two different things, two different continents. Two different things, two different planets.

secondly, how did the structure of evolution come about, what made its push for natural selection? where did this "blue print" of natural selection come from? how did different cells know how to react with other cells if after all were a result from a RANDOM bang?


They adapted. The same reason why people from colder places can walk around in 50 degree temperatures in a tank top and shorts and us people from Florida wear a jacket when it get's below 70. It's a bit of a stretch to compare that to adaptation of cells, but evolution has been proven. God, however, hasn't.

Have you ever seen how an animal is placed in a different ecosystem and the animal has to adapt to it's new surroundings and, eventually, the animals around it adapt to the new presence.

Now ask yourself this. If it wasn't for a Bible telling you want to do or you will be sent to hell how would you react to other people? Would you go around killing them or whatever? No? Because you have morals correct? Some of us rationally thinking people don't need a Bible to dictate our lives and to tell us what's right and wrong and if we go by the Bible stoning is legal and selling ones daughter is legal. Now tell me more about this biblical "morals" that have shaped us.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 05:14
Damn, we got some intelligent motherfuckers up in the HB forums smokeyface
Great explanation ^ up there, @yourfan. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Except for that last part about you knocking on the bible, haha. I'm an atheist, but I don't feel the need to push others out of their religions. For the most part, religions are healthy (excluding those who take the bible too fucking literally). If people need a set of guidelines from some higher order in order for them to live with good morals, then so be it.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 05:55
Damn, we got some intelligent motherfuckers up in the HB forums smokeyface
Great explanation ^ up there, @yourfan. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Except for that last part about you knocking on the bible, haha. I'm an atheist, but I don't feel the need to push others out of their religions. For the most part, religions are healthy (excluding those who take the bible too fucking literally). If people need a set of guidelines from some higher order in order for them to live with good morals, then so be it.


Yeah their are a bunch of pretty smart people here it's just, like me, unless it's a serious conversation we just troll around. Also, I'm not knocking the Bible because it has molded some GREAT people it's just the fact I dislike when someone can argue with facts and use the Bible as their primary weapon.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 13:24
Originally posted by Inactive User


In those same tribes they do have morals they probably don't live up to ours because like I said, and no offense, those tribes survive as animals. And the reason people believed in a higher power is because they needed a reason to explain natural phenomenon like the sun rising or solar eclipse. We have science that can prove and show how these occurrences occur. Before we had scientist Greeks believed a giant man held up that Earth, but now that we have science that can disprove this we can refute it. Christians believed that God existed in the heavens in the clouds, but now that we've been passed the clouds they have to change where their heavens exist. The Bible has too many contradictions and science that disproves it.

P.s. Those Gods that the tribes believe in aren't an almighty deitety they belive in what they can see "Sun Gods and Animals Gods" so that makes their Gods more believable than yours.


what you havnt explained is where morals came from, you have a very reasonable explanation on the psych behind the reason to explain greater phenomenon.. although you could say its been passed down by evolution but by continually passing down to the first organism or second evolved organism or third evolved organism, where did these organism get their morals from?

furthermore the Bible talks of 3 heavens, 2 physical (physical sky and space) and 1 spiritual (where the soul goes)
1st heaven is just our atmosphere, 2nd heaven is space or anything beyond our atmosphere,
Deuteronomy 10:14- "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God,"
heaven referring to atmosphere and heaven of heaven which is anything beyond the atmosphere, outer space.

and the 3rd heaven is obviously spiritual heaven which theres no point explaining to you because you wont believe

Originally posted by Inactive User

Because evolution is talking about EARTH it's a theory based on what we've seen on EARTH. That's like saying why haven't all black people move to Israel since the Nazi's drove the Jews from Germany. Two different things, two different continents. Two different things, two different planets.


dont know if you understood my question because there is astronomy and physics that say theres evolutionary processes happening outside of EARTH. because surely an evolutionary cell could have adapted into space and what space has to offer (space dust or sunlight/photosynthesis) it let alone a cell that could develop and live in other planets of our solar system, e.g Tardigrades can live in crazy conditions, why dont we see similar organisms in space or other planets after all these billions of years? if a basic simple cell organism could evolve on earth then couldnt it also do it on mars?

Originally posted by Inactive User


once again im not sure if you understood my question, you just took the question marks and made them periods.

i know in evolution theres adaption/natural selection as stated in the original question. but you havnt explained where this process came from, the push and the agenda of natural selection.. that push or agenda, what was the basis of its origin, and in the example question; "how did first cells or particles know how to react with other cells or particles?" was not clearly explained.

furthermore i can tell you from a Bible view where and how morals came to be and which "rules" apply to different people (Jew, gentile and the church) in different time periods (dispensations) but that wouldnt mean anything to you just as much as this discussion amounts to anything.

in the end no one will change their beliefs. i do look forward to your response and will consider it but ceebs replying to a vain discussion
Oct 15, 2012 @ 14:43
this thread is funny because its based on a concept that does not originate from the bible, heaven and hell.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 15:07
If its quick....then cool. If its slow, I think i'd just be let down that I couldn't try another day, even if I wanted to.
Oct 15, 2012 @ 15:09
death is my incentive to make the best out of my life everyday
life wouldn't make sense without death. i can say this as an atheist.


i like that

gotta accept it as a part of life. be sure to make your life as fulfilling as you can before it is over
Oct 15, 2012 @ 17:21
meow

Get it how u live

Oct 15, 2012 @ 17:30
this thread is funny because its based on a concept that does not originate from the bible, heaven and hell.


i just meant death in general really

Websites at your price aodevelopment.co HMU

Oct 15, 2012 @ 19:23
everything is a cycle in life

death is what you pay for being born.

its already like a .00000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that it was that was chosen to be born. billions of sperm racing plus what if your dad busted a nut before? or waited a couple days?

in reality death is just a cycle, you are born you die.

for religion, if it helps you go for it if not then don't.

how i view it, i believe in a heaven and there isn't one i'll be dissapointed as fuck

but if i don't believe in it and there is one its cool but if there isn't its cool also.

Be about it

Oct 15, 2012 @ 19:49
In the past year i watched just about everything i've known to believe in life as true crumble before my eyes. Being moral doesn't help you succeed, life is far from fair, and God is dead. My year has been pretty shitty

Websites at your price aodevelopment.co HMU

Oct 15, 2012 @ 23:41
snip


I am pretty much answering your questions in a broad manner. What you're asking me to explain is square one and that is not explainable because WHO KNOWS. This is basic creationist arguments you ask for an answer, and then ask from where did that come from, and from where did that come from, until you can get to the first part which can't be explained. Let's use this same type of questioning on you know. Where did morals come from? The Bible? Where did the Bible come from? God? Where did God come from? Oh he's always been there? Yeah, no. That doesn't give anyone an answer.

The best answer on morals I can give is that over time they were created by humanity to address negative social issues that plagued the era they were formed in.

On the second part. It seems that you have some kind of warped mind and believe that we have vistited every alien planet. Sorry, we have barely scratched the surface and we haven't been on 90% of the planets we have discovered the closet we get is a picture from something billions of light years away that may have died out LOOOOONG ago. We don't 100% understand space and what's out there, but we are learning slowly, but surely. Don't assume we have knowledge of everything that's everywhere.

The last part. You're confusing yourself here. Darwin was the creator of both theories, but they don't apply to each other that simply. And like I said you're using basic Creationist argumentative tactics. I'm not a scientist I can't guide you through each step, but you can see WITH YOUR EYES animals adapting and evolving to better suit their needs

I was trying to just answer questions, but now let's throw a few back.

Who created God? I guess you don't know just like I don't know how cells adapted.

God created Adam and Eve who had 2 sons so I guess they fucked their mom to populate the Earth? K.

God created a giant flood to wipe the Earth clean of humans except 1 Noah. So I guess he asexually reproduced and repopulated the Earth. K.

If God is almighty why can't he get rid of a simple evil angel that's controlling his domain. Why can't he just kill the devil and BAM end sin all together? He can't? I guess the Devil is more powerful than God.

Or you can ignore all of that and answer one simple question. Prove God exist without a shadow of a doubt or even give me a little evidence that suggest any kind of deity exist. Also, you can't use science as proof of anything because it contradicts everything religion has ever taught you people.

Can't answer that either? Ok, so tell me what it says in your Bible to explain high tide and low tide, sun rise and sunset, months and years. Explain this without using science just use your Bible.
Oct 16, 2012 @ 00:37
Some of you guys are so poetic #notroll
Oct 16, 2012 @ 02:04
if anything i'm scared of how i'm gonna die, rather than death itself.

Inactive User

Oct 16, 2012 @ 03:31
lol i love how the crux of every single creationist's argument is bent on DISPROVING evolution rather than PROVING their own backwards ass beliefs. and no the bible isn't proof, it's a fucking fairy tale. anything the bible teaches can be accomplished through secular means. we as humans are social beings, we NEED one another to survive as a race, think about that and then think about where our morality derives from.
Oct 16, 2012 @ 04:31
The Bible and almost all religion is some good idea's that in there time, the things they were implying such as not killing, stealing, commiting incest, was radical thinking. They had these ideas but had no way to enforce them as ways of living. So what they did is harness the fear that prevails most in the world: the fear of not knowing. In this case it would be not knowing what happens after death and tell this to a whole bunch of people that are dirt poor and simply have yet to develope a very logical way of thinking that we have today and you have the start of religion. Science can and has disproved many things religion said to be true except for the one last barrier, the afterlife and that is simply because you can't die, do research, and then come back to life to share data.
Oct 16, 2012 @ 04:52
The Bible and almost all religion is some good idea's that in there time, the things they were implying such as not killing, stealing, commiting incest, was radical thinking. They had these ideas but had no way to enforce them as ways of living. So what they did is harness the fear that prevails most in the world: the fear of not knowing. In this case it would be not knowing what happens after death and tell this to a whole bunch of people that are dirt poor and simply have yet to develope a very logical way of thinking that we have today and you have the start of religion. Science can and has disproved many things religion said to be true except for the one last barrier, the afterlife and that is simply because you can't die, do research, and then come back to life to share data.


The Bible simply gave people something to believe in when they had nothing. The rich and powerful never needed anything to believe in so the Bible made them out as devils. Brainwashing the lower until it built a powerful enough force to "fight back" now this guy who made up a very cool story about magic people has set the world into a panic where people think that magic people are more believable than science. Want to know who else used this tactic? HITLER!

lol i love how the crux of every single creationist's argument is bent on DISPROVING evolution rather than PROVING their own backwards ass beliefs. and no the bible isn't proof, it's a fucking fairy tale. anything the bible teaches can be accomplished through secular means. we as humans are social beings, we NEED one another to survive as a race, think about that and then think about where our morality derives from.


100% Agree.
Oct 16, 2012 @ 05:26
I'm not afraid of dying because I'll be too busy rotting away in the dirt to care.
Oct 16, 2012 @ 07:53
if this is 'tldr'.. atleast read the last 1/4

Originally posted by Inactive User
Who created God? I guess you don't know just like I don't know how cells adapted.


yea but i can say God exists beyond time and space. God didnt need to create Himself, He just existed. Just as hard to imagine as a random event (big bang) forms into a structured process (natural selection) and even go as far as creating cells that have "jobs" to do, all from a random event.

Originally posted by Inactive User
God created Adam and Eve who had 2 sons so I guess they fucked their mom to populate the Earth? K.


Adam and Even had other children beside Cain and Abel

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

As far as them populating, I aint hiding anything, there was intermarriage for the sake of population. BUT! it wasn’t till the time of Moses that God forbade the Israelites from brother-sister marriage (Leviticus chapters 18-20). Since God makes the rules, He can choose whats what just like how government passes laws.

a little excerpt for you to read to explain all this rather nicely.. from a book 'Where Did Cain Get His Wife?' by Ken Ham

Ken also provides a logical explanation for why God waited till Moses to outlaw this practice, when he didn’t with Abraham. Originally, there would have been no risk of this causing harmful deformities in the offspring. There is a problem today, because all of us have inherited copying mistakes in our genes, called mutations, which are usually harmful. Mutations are one effect of God’s curse on the entire creation because of Adam’s sin (Genesis 3:19, Romans 8:20–22).

Fortunately, we carry two copies of each gene, one inherited from each parent (called alleles). Usually we inherit mutations in different places, so usually the mutated gene’s effect is fully or partly masked by the ‘good’ gene. But if close relatives marry, then there is a one-in-four chance of a child inheriting mutant alleles in the same place (locus) from both parents. This one-in-four chance applies to each mutation, of which there are thousands, so the chance of some deformity is great.

But Adam and Eve were created ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31) — the Hebrew tov meod, in the context of a finished creation which God had already called ‘good’ after most creation days, indicates physical perfection without any blemishes. So they would not have had copying mistakes, so brother-sister intermarriage would not have had the problem it has today. Harmful mutations would take many generations to accumulate to levels where close intermarriage would be dangerous for the offspring. As mentioned, even Abraham, living long after the creation of mankind, married his half-sister Sarah, and they were the ancestors of the very vibrant Jewish people group.

But as many centuries passed, many harmful, degenerative mutations accumulated in the human gene pool. So, as Ken pointed out, this is probably a major reason for God giving laws to the Israelites through Moses against intermarriage between close relatives (Leviticus 18–20). Today there would be even more chance of deformity/disease in the offspring of such a union than in Moses’ time—consequently, even first cousin marriages are outlawed in many countries.

Originally posted by Inactive User
God created a giant flood to wipe the Earth clean of humans except 1 Noah. So I guess he asexually reproduced and repopulated the Earth. K.


Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

self explanatory

Originally posted by Inactive User
If God is almighty why can't he get rid of a simple evil angel that's controlling his domain. Why can't he just kill the devil and BAM end sin all together? He can't? I guess the Devil is more powerful than God.


Job 1:6-12, Job 2:1-6

Satan can only do things he does when God allows him.
as far as God making an obvious sign to prove Himself, He already has with Christ and yet many will not believe.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

When Christ arose 500 people have seen Him alive and well yet not even 5 years later the news did not last, it shows how hype comes and goes in humans, it would just be a media hype that will pass away in a year if we do see a sign. no point really; He's given us enough.

Holy God does not need to save sinners from the devil because sinners are not of God, once Adam sinned, the human race was seperated from God because He is Holy, yet out of His grace He sent His Son to die on the cross as a "payment" for our sins.

Originally posted by Inactive User
so tell me what it says in your Bible to explain high tide and low tide, sun rise and sunset, months and years. Explain this without using science just use your Bible.


Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

The word rendered "compassed" (חוּג chûg), means to describe a circle, as the Hebrew language did not have "sphere" in its vocabulary at the time. but circle earth ring a thought? more than that the verse talks of tide if you read it thoughtfully smokeyface

Gen 1:14-18 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

little extra excerpt:
The two words, ‘evening’ (‘ereb ערב) and ‘morning’ (boqer בקר), are combined with יום (yôm) 19 times each outside of Genesis 1 (three times these words share the same reference―Numbers 9:15, Deuteronomy 16:4 and Daniel 8:26). Every time, they clearly mean that particular literal part of a 24-hour day, regardless of the literary genre or context. Also, even when ‘morning’ and ‘evening’ occur together without yôm (38 times outside of Genesis 1, including 25 in historical narrative), it always, without exception, designates a 24-hour day. All the instances of yôm in the Genesis 1 account are qualified by the statement ויהי ערב ויהי בקר (wayehî ‘ereb wayehi boqer)—‘and there was evening, and there was morning’, which by comparing with other Scripture, must denote a 24-hour day.

Originally posted by Inactive User
Also, you can't use science as proof of anything because it contradicts everything religion has ever taught you people.


how so when the Bible clearly talks of a round earth (as shown before and also Isaiah 40:21-22a)

Earth in space and the water cycle, in extension, gravity is shown here, since you cant hang something on nothing it demonstrates the effect of gravity in this verse.
Job 26:7-8 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

Job 36:27-28 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof: Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.

Two hemispheres wind coriolis effect
Ecc 1:6-7 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

few others if i really look for em

lastly, science researchers say themselves; that if a study confirms a prediction off a hypothesis, the hypothesis is only supported, not PROVEN. more studies that confirm the hypothesis only make the validity stronger and have more support but never proven or made fact. (Cozby, P. C. (2009). Methods in behavioural research (10th ed.). New York, NY: McGraw-Hill. end of page 19 to start of 20) [cause im taking a course i didnt just fish for this book]

if you could PROVE something you can replicate it over and over and over again. then will it become FACT

and for before: stoning was the death penalty, do you think they would just stone anyone? lololol, remember guns didnt exist in those days

i love how you put the Bible way out of proportion and context when you clearly havnt got a clue whats written, i guess you just hear snips of "problems" here and there or from someone and then claim it has holes when you havnt researched it yourself. example: i cant tell another religion they are wrong unless i dig into their source of belief and show where the holes are, i cant just say im right without proving why they are wrong from their own source of belief or knowledge

anways... whatever.. consider dark matter once again

*goes to apparel and other goods section then lurks*
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