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April 27, 2010 @ 09:13 PM
Virungă

Post: 2790

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: Connecticut

^ How can beliefs be realized without having ideas first?
April 27, 2010 @ 09:16 PM
Movement187

Post: 394

Join Date: Sep 2009

Is it not your belief for ideas to be first conceived?
April 27, 2010 @ 09:18 PM
Virungă

Post: 2790

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: Connecticut

First it conceived ideas to be not is your belief?
April 27, 2010 @ 09:31 PM
Dray

Post: 2167

Join Date: Dec 2008

Location: Bay Area

Hb has been a mind fuck fest all day
April 27, 2010 @ 10:04 PM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

Is it not your belief for ideas to be first conceived?


the fuck does this mean

beliefs are stagnant, unwavering, stubborn.

ideas are flexible, ever-changing, and open to adjustment at ANY TIME BASED ON THE DATA AND EVIDENCE.

my idea is that there is no god, based on the evidence.

show me some evidence, and I WILL RE-EVALUATE MY POSITION.

I WON'T IGNORE IT.
April 27, 2010 @ 10:12 PM
Movement187

Post: 394

Join Date: Sep 2009

Lo siento, but can you give me a brief synopsis on why you don't think God exist or any evidence proving he doesn't exist. I haven't really been following your posts in this thread.
April 27, 2010 @ 10:55 PM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

there can't be any evidence, by definition, proving something doesn't exist.

it's well established that you cannot prove something doesn't exist.

however, using logic and parsimony, i've come to the conclusion that there isn't a higher power (god, allah, etc.)

1. The bible was written by men.
2. it was written over a span of hundreds of years.
3. what was transcribed were often witness accounts, or even stories passed through generations, or from person to person.
4. it has been re-translated and re-written hundreds of times.

There isn't anything in the bible that can be used to explain anything once you take away it's self-affirming power (i.e. that because the bible says that the bible is true, it must be true). Try publishing a paper that attempts to prove something, and instead of data, just writing

this paper is infallible, there are no mistakes, and it is completely perfect

if you're dealing with morons, this may have a chance of working. or if you tell a child every day from a very young age that everything in this paper is 100% unquestionably true, you have a much better chance.

however, when dealing with people who DON'T believe everything they hear on self-accredited merit alone (scientists, skeptics, logical thinkers), you're going to need something else entirely to convince people. And that would be hard data and evidence, which of course, the bible is sorely lacking.

For this next part, you're going to have to accept the theory of evolution. As many users here can attest, I am well versed in this theory, and while i am somewhat more tolerant to religious people, I will not accept any ignorance in this area. If you don't accept the theory, you are either

a) uneducated, and do not fully understand what the theory attempts to explain
b) you do understand the theory, but you have an agenda that attempts to discredit it

Anyways, based on this theory, we are NOT the pinnacle of a process designed to create the perfect life form. Evolution through natural selection produces the best life form for the given environment*, and a notable by-product of this process is our acquisition of intelligence.

Using this intelligence over thousands of years, language was eventually developed, and then writing (the transcribing of knowledge into a static form, arguably the greatest collective achievement in human history).

Thanks to the Greeks, many of us have agreed with their conclusion that the universe is not completely chaotic, that it is not controlled by the whim of a god or gods, but rather, that there is an underlying order to everything. Rather than simply moving a question of how an unknown function worked a level higher (god did it) and leaving it at that, we have faith in our ability to uncover how this function works, and if with it comes other questions, so be it, we begin to work on those.

The faith in human ingenuity is the one instance of faith I do admire.

If we can keep answering questions that have been explained by the supernatural, then eventually all the power used to convince people will be gone.

Look, I'm not here to convince you. Once someone has been taught something from a very young age, it's nearly impossible to get through to them. I'm just laying out a logical conclusion based on the points above.

*why should there be a god for a life form that has only existed for a mere blink on the cosmic time-scale? If the Earth's timescale alone were to be analogized using the image of a persons arm span, humans existence could be wiped out with a single swipe of the nail filer.
April 28, 2010 @ 12:14 AM
Guapamole

Post: 3957

Join Date: Jan 2009

my *****cool
April 28, 2010 @ 12:47 AM
Virungă

Post: 2790

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: Connecticut

I hope to god(lol irony) this is a copy and paste you didn't waste your time typing this.

there can't be any evidence, by definition, proving something doesn't exist.

it's well established that you cannot prove something doesn't exist.

however, using logic and parsimony, i've come to the conclusion that there isn't a higher power (god, allah, etc.)

1. The bible was written by men.
2. it was written over a span of hundreds of years.
3. what was transcribed were often witness accounts, or even stories passed through generations, or from person to person.
4. it has been re-translated and re-written hundreds of times.

There isn't anything in the bible that can be used to explain anything once you take away it's self-affirming power (i.e. that because the bible says that the bible is true, it must be true). Try publishing a paper that attempts to prove something, and instead of data, just writing

this paper is infallible, there are no mistakes, and it is completely perfect

if you're dealing with morons, this may have a chance of working. or if you tell a child every day from a very young age that everything in this paper is 100% unquestionably true, you have a much better chance.

however, when dealing with people who DON'T believe everything they hear on self-accredited merit alone (scientists, skeptics, logical thinkers), you're going to need something else entirely to convince people. And that would be hard data and evidence, which of course, the bible is sorely lacking.

For this next part, you're going to have to accept the theory of evolution. As many users here can attest, I am well versed in this theory, and while i am somewhat more tolerant to religious people, I will not accept any ignorance in this area. If you don't accept the theory, you are either

a) uneducated, and do not fully understand what the theory attempts to explain
b) you do understand the theory, but you have an agenda that attempts to discredit it

Anyways, based on this theory, we are NOT the pinnacle of a process designed to create the perfect life form. Evolution through natural selection produces the best life form for the given environment*, and a notable by-product of this process is our acquisition of intelligence.

Using this intelligence over thousands of years, language was eventually developed, and then writing (the transcribing of knowledge into a static form, arguably the greatest collective achievement in human history).

Thanks to the Greeks, many of us have agreed with their conclusion that the universe is not completely chaotic, that it is not controlled by the whim of a god or gods, but rather, that there is an underlying order to everything. Rather than simply moving a question of how an unknown function worked a level higher (god did it) and leaving it at that, we have faith in our ability to uncover how this function works, and if with it comes other questions, so be it, we begin to work on those.

The faith in human ingenuity is the one instance of faith I do admire.

If we can keep answering questions that have been explained by the supernatural, then eventually all the power used to convince people will be gone.

Look, I'm not here to convince you. Once someone has been taught something from a very young age, it's nearly impossible to get through to them. I'm just laying out a logical conclusion based on the points above.

*why should there be a god for a life form that has only existed for a mere blink on the cosmic time-scale? If the Earth's timescale alone were to be analogized using the image of a persons arm span, humans existence could be wiped out with a single swipe of the nail filer.
April 28, 2010 @ 12:49 AM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

it took me like 10 minutes to write
April 28, 2010 @ 12:51 AM
Virungă

Post: 2790

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: Connecticut

^ smh at contemporary youth, that's 10min of time you coulda been watching thick Asian porn.
April 28, 2010 @ 01:11 AM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

yo you gonna be at mifflin?
April 28, 2010 @ 01:26 AM
shiaduup

Post: 49

Join Date: May 2007

Education without values makes for a cleverer devil.
April 28, 2010 @ 01:34 AM
CHOPZZBISCUIT

Post: 4359

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: KALI4NIA

beliefs are stupid

ideas are better


exactly, there's nothing wrong with loving thy neighbors and doing good deeds..

except i believe in the existence of GOD although I dont necessarily believe that GOD has a specific association with the particular religion.

Kayv: pull bitches, not triggers. throw parties, not fists. futurebass : my mom said life is like a box of kimchi. chopzz.tumblr.com

April 28, 2010 @ 01:46 AM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

Education without values makes for a cleverer devil.


you make the assumption that everyone who doesn't have a moral guidance system instilled by a religious institution is a devil
April 28, 2010 @ 01:51 AM
shiaduup

Post: 49

Join Date: May 2007

Well then, HB what are your values?
April 28, 2010 @ 02:00 AM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

golden rule pretty much
April 28, 2010 @ 02:23 AM
shiaduup

Post: 49

Join Date: May 2007

golden rule pretty much


Really? You typed an essay on trying to disprove God and when it comes to values you say that? If people spent their time working on their morals and values rather than trying persecute Christians, America might not be in the lousy state it is right now. This nation was founded on biblical principles, Samuel Adams, James Madison were just of few of the founding fathers who were Christians, who shaped this very country, in which you can say what you want to say, around the bible. Did they get it wrong or are we as a country ruining what was once right?
April 28, 2010 @ 02:31 AM
Virungă

Post: 2790

Join Date: Jan 2010

Location: Connecticut

yo you gonna be at mifflin?


Shit idk I got arrested there last year which fucked up my life.
April 28, 2010 @ 02:33 AM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

a drinking ticket fucked up your life?

Really? You typed an essay on trying to disprove God and when it comes to values you say that? If people spent their time working on their morals and values rather than trying persecute Christians, America might not be in the lousy state it is right now. This nation was founded on biblical principles, Samuel Adams, James Madison were just of few of the founding fathers who were Christians, who shaped this very country, in which you can say what you want to say, around the bible. Did they get it wrong or are we as a country ruining what was once right?


come on...

did you even read the first 2 sentences i wrote?

you think christians are being persecuted? how? by being exposed to logical questions regarding their faith? pfff

you're absolutely wrong about this nation being founded on biblical principles, in fact one of the main points of the constitution was to keep religion and government separate.


Written under the presidency of george washington, and signed under the presidency of john adams.

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-thomas jefferson

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
-benjamin franklin
April 28, 2010 @ 08:36 AM
AlphaTrion

Post: 418

Join Date: Apr 2008

Well then, HB what are your values?


Christian values and an atheist values are pretty much the same but without the supernatural nonsense and less intolerance towards gays and non-christians.

If the only reason you adhere to a set of values is because a book tells you, that's not saying a whole lot for you as a human being.
April 28, 2010 @ 08:52 AM
jay3091

Post: 1942

Join Date: Oct 2007

Location: Ann Arbor, MI

I'm apostalic. I haven't been able to go to church in a while because of work. I couldn't recite a Bible verse if my life depended on it. I haven't prayed in a while either. So at this point I don't know where my relationship with Christ is going.

I blame it on my parents for not baptising me when I was younger. I feel like my eyes would be more open to this religious world... IDK, I feel I wouldn't have doubt here and there.
April 28, 2010 @ 04:26 PM
shiaduup

Post: 49

Join Date: May 2007

Christian values and an atheist values are pretty much the same but without the supernatural nonsense and less intolerance towards gays and non-christians.

If the only reason you adhere to a set of values is because a book tells you, that's not saying a whole lot for you as a human being.



but how often do atheist live it out? and for what purpose? atheism, when it boils down, is a pessimistic outlook on life. You live, you die, you rot. Why love, why forgive, why show integrity if it amounts to nothing in the future?

Oh and separation of church and state was meant to keep from the government from imposing a particular religion on the people, for example, Constantinople and the last days of the roman empire. That doesn't necessarily mean the founding fathers didn't base our government on biblical principles.
April 28, 2010 @ 05:17 PM
shiaduup

Post: 49

Join Date: May 2007

because its right? do you do these things only to get into heaven? thats a selfish approach to life.

~1~


Right according to whom? I do it because God says it's right. You do you it because YOU think it's right. THAT sound like a selfish, not to mention prideful, approach to life.
April 28, 2010 @ 05:34 PM
LiquidSwords

Post: 833

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Madison,WI

but how often do atheist live it out? and for what purpose? atheism, when it boils down, is a pessimistic outlook on life. You live, you die, you rot. Why love, why forgive, why show integrity if it amounts to nothing in the future?


It's a more realistic outlook on life. I don't believe in heaven or hell, so for me this is the only life I've got, and I intend to make the most of it. Crazy religious types( not saying you are) tend to believe the opposite, that they have an afterlife so this one doesn't matter as much. I wasn't raised religious and yet I still believe in treating people well. It just has to do with the morals instilled upon you by your parents and that it's the right thing to do. I agree with what kilo said about the golden rule.
April 28, 2010 @ 06:10 PM
AlphaTrion

Post: 418

Join Date: Apr 2008

but how often do atheist live it out? and for what purpose?


What are you talking about? They live it out all the time. Is there a rash of atheist crime waves across the country that I'm unaware of? We're normal people. Do you really think that atheists are bunch of degenerates lying, stealing, fucking, and killing just because they don't fear god?

atheism, when it boils down, is a pessimistic outlook on life. You live, you die, you rot. Why love, why forgive, why show integrity if it amounts to nothing in the future?


Atheism, when it boils down, means you don't believe in a higher power. That's it. You're describing nihilism which is something entirely different. As for why follow a moral code if you don't believe in a god...you do it because you're not a dick. Morality just makes good sense to live a happy life and avoid destruction of the species. If you get any group of people together an agreed upon moral system will arise with or without a god. Just because an atheist doesn't believe in an afterlife doesn't mean they don't want to live their lives as happily and as worry-free as possible.
April 28, 2010 @ 06:44 PM
Augustus

Post: 731

Join Date: May 2007

Location: NYC

But what's the difference between a believer and a non-believer at the moment of death? Who knows? SO WHY GIVE A FUCK. Some of you guys are on some elitist anti-christian BS.

@QuattroRide

April 28, 2010 @ 07:07 PM
kilogram

Post: 1540

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Gaza

some are
April 28, 2010 @ 07:09 PM
Blunted at birth.

Post: 634

Join Date: Feb 2010

Location: Greater Los Angeles...

LULZ, so I'm guessing an Islam thread wouldn't work here.
April 28, 2010 @ 07:09 PM
young idiot

Post: 6150

Join Date: Oct 2008

Location: London

^ Let's see.

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